[00:02] Welcome and introduction by Leo van der Velde
Jerry Helmers: Wat leuk dat je weer luistert. Hartelijk welkom. Je bent bij Keukencast, de podcast voor iedere vakprofessional in de keukenbranche. Mijn naam is Jerry Helmers en ik ben de presentator en gespreksleider. En wie heb ik vandaag in de studio? Leo van der Velde, de big boss van Dekker Zevenhuizen uit Zevenhuizen.
Jerry Helmers: Leo, welcome. Did you have a good trip from Zevenhuizen to picturesque Weert, where we’re sitting here in the studio?
Leo van der Velde: Yes, I had a good trip. There wasn't too much traffic, so the trip went smoothly.
Jerry Helmers: Well, these days, the average Dutch person’s day is already a good one if you’re not stuck in traffic. No rain, no snow.
Leo van der Velde: No rain, no snow.
[00:47] Why listeners should keep listening
Jerry Helmers: That’s great. We’ll get to know each other a little better in a moment. And for those who might not know you yet, it’s always a must to hear who you are and what you do at Dekker Zevenhuizen. But before we do that, I’d like to hear from you: why should the listener keep listening? Who should actually keep listening? What promise will you make? Why should people keep listening?
Leo van der Velde: I think Dekker is a really great company—a family business. Our motto is “just do it,” which is a bit of a Rotterdam thing. Zevenhuizen is also near Rotterdam.
Jerry Helmers: I can also hear a slight Rotterdam accent. Or at least from that area.
Leo van der Velde: I was born and raised in The Hague. But maybe I’ve been influenced by my colleagues for a few years now. It’s kind of rubbing off on me. So just do it—be an extraordinary entrepreneur. And I really enjoy sharing a bit about our family business. And I think other people might enjoy hearing about it, too.
Jerry Helmers: Yeah, but why is it fun to listen to? What promises do you make? Before people click away.
Leo van der Velde: Don’t click away. I’m going to tell you about extraordinary entrepreneurship. What is sustainable entrepreneurship? How do we do it? And how do you do it as a family business?
Jerry Helmers: Extraordinary Entrepreneurship. So can we think of this as a kind of entrepreneurship podcast?
Leo van der Velde: Well, it’s a family business. And I’m a big believer in family businesses, because they’re always focused on continuity. That’s quite different from being a publicly traded company or an investment firm. And I think that in the kitchen industry, where there are so many family businesses, that makes the way we work together really enjoyable. So I hope there are entrepreneurs in the kitchen industry listening who think: oh yeah, I recognize that. Or: I’m going to give Leo a call, because I don’t think what he’s saying is right. Well, I like that too.
Jerry Helmers: Could I ask you now if you could share, say, two or three top entrepreneurial tips at the end of this podcast that we can apply in the kitchen industry?
Leo van der Velde: Well, I’m not sure how many tips there are that will be immediately useful to everyone, but I’ll at least share some insights into what our company does and why we enjoy it so much.
[02:34] Statements on sustainability, family businesses, and circularity
Jerry Helmers: May I present you with a few propositions?
Leo van der Velde: Sure.
Jerry Helmers: And you can agree or disagree with that. Or rather, you can—no, you must—answer that, because I certainly won’t settle for a blank response. I’ve jotted down a few. Here’s the first one: A kitchen specialty store that can’t say anything about sustainability is going to miss the boat.
Leo van der Velde: No.
Jerry Helmers: So you disagree, then?
Leo van der Velde: I disagree.
Jerry Helmers: I disagree. A family business can become more sustainable faster than a large corporation.
Leo van der Velde: Yes.
Jerry Helmers: Really?
Leo van der Velde: I agree.
Jerry Helmers: Even though Dekker Zevenhuizen is actually a pretty big company. You can get lost there just in the parking lot.
Leo van der Velde: Yeah, maybe in the parking lot. But other than that, it’s a really charming family business.
Jerry Helmers: That’s charming. So you are an ambassador after all. In the kitchen industry, the cheapest option is rarely the best choice.
Leo van der Velde: That depends entirely on the customer.
Jerry Helmers: Yes, then we’ll agree or disagree.
Leo van der Velde: I disagree.
Jerry Helmers: I disagree. Maybe we’ll get around to adding a bit of nuance later. Ultimately, consumers tend to choose based on color rather than sustainability.
Leo van der Velde: Correct. I agree.
Jerry Helmers: Finally, circularity only becomes interesting if consumers don’t have to sacrifice anything.
Leo van der Velde: I agree.
Jerry Helmers: We’ve gone over about five points. I’ll lay them out here next to me. Of course, I’ve been taking notes along with you. Let’s see which ones we’ll come back to later. But first, Leo van der Velde. Who is Leo van der Velde?
[04:00] Background on Leo van der Velde
Leo van der Velde: That’s you. Born in The Hague. And father of two sons who are now 18 and 20. And both a head taller than me. I’m the managing director at Dekker. I’ve been doing that for 13 years now. Before that, I worked at MHK, a purchasing organization in Germany. There, I was on the board of the international group. I also lived in the Frankfurt area. That was a very different management structure from what we’re used to in the Netherlands.
Jerry Helmers: I imagine things are probably a bit more formal in Germany.
Leo van der Velde: I think “more formalistic” is a good way to put it. And also a bit more hierarchical.
Jerry Helmers: Do you also mean that within a company, there is more respect for the people higher up in the hierarchy?
Leo van der Velde: Well, I don’t know if there’s more respect—I doubt it, actually, because I don’t think people automatically show respect—but there is a formality and a kind of hierarchy that we’re not really used to in the Netherlands. I once drew a picture like that when I started working at Dekker. You have this eagle sitting at the top, and it shits on the eagles below it. And the lower tier passes it on to the others. That’s the management structure in Germany, I said. And in the Netherlands, the management structure is exactly the opposite. The shop floor is at the top, and they only pass the buck downwards when they have a problem. Otherwise, they solve everything themselves. But when shit hits the fan, it goes to the manager. And if you’re at the top of a company in the Netherlands, you actually get the most shit thrown at you. And in Germany, they get the most shit. That’s actually, figuratively speaking, a bit of a snapshot of the structures.
Jerry Helmers: Which would you prefer?
Leo van der Velde: Well, both approaches have their advantages. You see, the big advantage is that in the Netherlands, people actually look for solutions on their own, solve problems themselves, and only come to you when they think: hey, this might not be going quite right; I’ll check in with you. And in Germany, of course, it’s also nice sometimes when people just do what you ask.
Jerry Helmers: Am I hearing a silent wish?
Leo van der Velde: Well, it’s just a secret wish. But there are days—maybe once a month or so—when you think: it would have been nice if it had been done the German way, instead of me spending days on it.
Jerry Helmers: Would you still dare to promote this podcast to all your employees?
Leo van der Velde: Yes, because I think that, as a result, we have a much greater sense of ownership in the Netherlands. Many more people feel personally responsible for something because they also have the freedom to come up with solutions themselves. And of course, in a way, that works much better in our culture than a somewhat formalistic or hierarchical culture. On the other hand, if you look at German culture, when something is a bit of a steady-state process—pure production, so to speak—and you have to adhere to standards, rules, and everything else, then it works well in Germany. That’s why there are cars of exceptionally high quality.
Jerry Helmers: Right on time. But what made you decide to switch from MHK to Dekker Zevenhuizen?
[06:55] The move from MHK to Dekker Zevenhuizen
Leo van der Velde: I was living there in Germany with my young children. And my wife didn’t enjoy German culture as much as I did. So she said something like, “I’m going back to the Netherlands with the kids.” Then I thought: well, then I’ll go with her. Because I don’t think it would be much fun to only carve the meat on Saturdays and Sundays now and then. And a four- or five-hour drive is obviously too much.
Jerry Helmers: But then, at some point, Dekker Zevenhuizen came into the picture. I mean, you were already working in the kitchen industry, so of course you were already familiar with the company.
Leo van der Velde: Yes, I knew Dekker. He was MHK’s main supplier in the Netherlands. So I just said: I’m going back to the Netherlands. And then Jan Hogebroek, the director at the time, came up to me at some point. He said: Leo, I want to retire on December 12, 2012. And I thought: maybe this is something for you. So then I started talking to Dekker, with the Supervisory Board.
Jerry Helmers: Yes, but what made you decide to do this for Dekker Zevenhuizen and not for another company?
Leo van der Velde: Well, I was familiar with the company, but of course I didn’t know it very well. I knew a few people. I knew Peter Hoordijk, the sales director. I knew Ben van Elk, and I knew Jan Hogebroek.
Jerry Helmers: Ben van Elk works in marketing.
Leo van der Velde: Yes, marketing, product development, innovations. And what I always liked about Dekker was that you always had great conversations with those people. The folks at Dekker were always there to help you think things through. If you had a problem as a purchasing team, they’d work with you to solve it. So I had a very positive impression of the company. They were willing to let you contribute to their revenue. So I thought: well, then I’ll treat myself to working there too.
Jerry Helmers: And they’re still happy with you after all these years?
Leo van der Velde: I certainly hope so. I certainly hope so.
Jerry Helmers: I hope so. What have you accomplished in the 12 or 13 years you’ve been working there?
[08:27] Growth and Strategy at Dekker
Leo van der Velde: Well, when I started working there, Dekker mainly produced laminate countertops. We had one factory in Zevenhuizen, and the entire organization began to grow. That was also Arie Dekker’s wish. And I actually find it quite funny to say that. When I started working there, he said: “The most important thing is…” because he was already in his 70s at the time. So I asked him, “What do you want to do with the company? Because once you’re gone, it’ll have to be sold.” “No, it has to keep going forever.” And then I said, “Well, we’ll have to make some arrangements for that.” And then he said, “Well, don’t worry about it. I’m going to be 100, so I’ll still be here before you retire.” I said, “Well, that might be true.” But suppose you were to pass away next year—I’d still want to know what you want to do with the company. And then he said: “For me, the company is the people. They’ve always come here, they work here, and they’re from this region. And I want that continuity to continue.” Everyone should always be able to keep working if they do their best. And I said: well, a company does have to be somewhat profitable. Labor costs are rising. So if you want to keep everyone employed and become more productive, we have to grow. I said: we don’t want to become like Japan either. Where at some point you have nothing but people over 60 and no young people. Because then, demographically speaking, you naturally have a problem too. I said: so yes, we also have to be attractive to young people. So if we need to bring in new people and keep everyone working, then we actually have to grow. Well, that became the strategy. Double-digit growth. So that was actually it back then—because of his drive to keep everyone working, that was Dekker’s growth strategy.
Jerry Helmers: But how did you manage to do that?
Leo van der Velde: In the end, we went ahead with the acquisitions.
Jerry Helmers: We’re already talking about entrepreneurship, aren’t we?
Leo van der Velde: Yes, we’ve made a number of acquisitions. I was incredibly lucky that Erbi had just gone bankrupt when I joined Dekker. That allowed us to acquire Erbi, which enabled us to make a huge leap forward in the brick business. We started developing new products, such as Greengridz, which we introduced to the market. Ultimately, we now have five factories in the Netherlands: Zevenhuizen, Alphen, Wijchen, Deurne, and Serskamp. And we’re active abroad with a subsidiary in Belgium and our own operations in the German market.
Jerry Helmers: And how many people do you currently have working in the Netherlands?
Leo van der Velde: 500 and a bit.
Jerry Helmers: And to some extent. And they’re a major employer in Zevenhuizen and the surrounding area.
Leo van der Velde: Yes, we used to be a major employer in Zevenhuizen, although the town has grown quite a bit in recent years. It’s now a town of 50,000, so it’s growing rapidly. As a result, we’re becoming a relatively smaller employer.
Jerry Helmers: But there are more people working there. I mean, our listeners are mainly kitchen specialty stores, specialty retailers, and showroom salespeople. What kind of image do you think your company has among them? I haven’t looked into it, mind you. It’s an open question.
[10:58] Dekker's reputation in the kitchen industry
Leo van der Velde: Well, I hope that feeling I had when I started working at Dekker—that it’s a company you can really trust—is still there. That they’ll work with you to find a solution when you have a problem. Look, ultimately, I find the kitchen industry to be an incredibly interesting field. Why? Because, as the Germans say: “Geschäfte werden unter Menschen gemacht.” And that really still holds true in the kitchen industry. A kitchen studio sells its kitchens because the customer has a good feeling about that person. Because, of course, they can buy a kitchen anywhere, and lots of people can create beautiful designs. But why do they buy from a kitchen studio? Because they actually want that person they’re sitting with to succeed. He’s done his best, listened carefully, and struck a chord. They want him to succeed. That’s actually what drives sales in the kitchen industry. And I hope that’s how it is in our industry too. That a kitchen studio works with us because they want us to succeed as well. And of course, we need to have good prices, a good product, and provide excellent service. But they also have to want you to succeed. Because, of course, they can all manage just fine without you. Then they’ll go with someone else they do want to see succeed. So I hope Dekker conveys the impression that we do our best for our customers. And help with colors, design, and the showroom.
Jerry Helmers: Well, what I was just about to say: the showroom—I’ve been there quite often myself. Personally, I think it’s a truly beautiful showroom. You also change up the displays from time to time. That’s always a very smart move, of course. Why did you make the choices you did? How did you design the showroom?
[12:22] From showroom to Dekker Trend Center
Leo van der Velde: Actually, quite a few years ago, our sales representatives would go to the kitchen store with small samples. And they would say: “These will be the eight, nine, or ten new colors.”.
Jerry Helmers: For this year, exactly.
Leo van der Velde: Yeah, for this year. You’d have a little sample, and you’d show that to people. It would actually be nice if our customers could see our products in a slightly nicer setting. So we could just show them: look, this is a large record. Would you like to record that? And that’s how you could display it. So the initial idea was: we’re actually going to build a showroom so our customers can come to us and see the new collections there. Van Elk also had an idea at the time; he was going to collaborate with Monique van der Reijden, who is a trend forecaster.
Jerry Helmers: That’s a trend watcher, yes, exactly. Monique.
Leo van der Velde: Yes, she’s the editor-in-chief of Elle Decoration, for example, but she also publishes a magazine for interior designers that’s used in design schools to cover all the latest trends. And it’s updated every year. So she’s really busy with that. And he thought: you know, if I start working with her and she shows us what the trends are for the coming years, then we can use that to guide our product management, sales, and invite a few clients—and then we can say: hey, what really fits with us and what doesn’t? And what do we think is interesting for the kitchens? Then we’ll choose materials a little differently. And that’s when the idea came up: we can show the showroom, then we can also present trends, create a narrative around it, and then you might be able to make better choices in your various colors. And that eventually grew. Then a client asked: “I have a client here, and I don’t have that countertop in stock, but it’s in your showroom—can they come by?” So, we’d arrange for someone from our office to go there to meet our client’s customer, the end consumer. And that’s how it eventually grew, to the point where we now have three full-time employees. And yes, kitchen studios send customers our way, and sometimes people come directly through the website.
Jerry Helmers: Yes, because when I’m at your store, I often see customers wandering around or having a little chat. But we keep talking about a showroom. Don’t we call it an inspiration center?
Leo van der Velde: Yes, Dekker Trend Center.
Jerry Helmers: Ah, Trend Center—that’s it.
Leo van der Velde: Dekker Trend Center. You can see the trends in kitchen countertops.
Jerry Helmers: Yeah, no, but do I really have to help you find the right word? I knew there was something—it was something other than “showroom.”.
Leo van der Velde: Yes, I didn't want to correct you when you mentioned the showroom, but it's actually a Dekker Trend Center.
Jerry Helmers: A Trend Center, indeed. So those consumers regularly stop by your store. I’ve actually seen that with my own eyes. At the same time, in my experience, consumers are also increasingly interested in what happens throughout the entire supply chain. I think you can confirm that, but I’m very curious where that interest comes from. Or why is it that consumers want to know so much more than they used to?
[14:57] Supply Chain Optimization and the Kitchen as an Example of Customization
Leo van der Velde: Yes, I think supply chain optimization is definitely very interesting when you look at the kitchens.
Jerry Helmers: Wait a minute, supply chain optimization?
Leo van der Velde: Let’s just say the supply chain. What happens from the supplier all the way to the consumer?
Jerry Helmers: All the way down to the consumer, yes.
Leo van der Velde: And way back when, before I joined MHK, I was an assistant professor of supply chain management at TU Delft. That was before I ended up in the kitchen industry. At the time, I thought: well, I’d never really considered the kitchen industry before. But once I started working in the kitchen industry, it became incredibly clear to me that it’s an incredibly unique industry. Because if you look at supply chain management, in the late ’90s it was all about mass customization. How can you make something customer-specific on an industrial scale? And you can do that with all kinds of products. But if you look at the kitchen, it’s actually a prototype of mass customization. Because ultimately, the designer creates a kitchen based on the consumer’s specifications. It is then produced to order—it’s not kept in stock; it’s made to order. And the final assembly also takes place at the consumer’s home. If you’re building a helicopter, you have an entire supply chain. But then you have a very special facility where you assemble it.
Jerry Helmers: Configuration is the standard.
Leo van der Velde: There are no standard solutions in the kitchen industry in the Netherlands. So a kitchen salesperson is really a designer who creates a stunning design based on specific elements, the customer’s requests, and their specifications. A functional design is created. And that design has to fit, and it has to be installed at the customer’s home, where the customer sometimes even comes by to check if everything is going well—so it’s a high-pressure situation. So, in fact, it’s an incredibly interesting supply chain.
Jerry Helmers: But why would consumers want to know that? That was my first question.
Leo van der Velde: So that supply chain is very important, and what you’re seeing now is that consumers actually have influence. Because they walk into a store like that, and the entire product is essentially put together based on their preferences. And what you see throughout society is that people are becoming increasingly interested: where does it come from? Who makes it? Is it produced fairly? Soon those people will be coming to my house to install it—what kind of people will be coming to my house to install it? And that feeling has to be very good. So there is actually a trend where people are increasingly interested in what that supply chain looks like, where my stuff comes from, where it’s made, is it made fairly, are these products that don’t cause microplastics, is there no lead in my tap water, and who checks that? People are interested in that. Health—what’s happening in my living environment because of the things I buy?
[17:36] Knowledge of the supply chain in the specialty retail sector
Jerry Helmers: Can showroom salespeople answer all those kinds of questions?
Leo van der Velde: I think a showroom salesperson is really a designer. And of course, there are different types of stores with different approaches. Each one positions itself differently from the others. And as a result, they appeal to different customers. And I have to say, I’m actually very impressed by the quality of the designers. For example, two weeks ago I was at a conference where they selected the most beautiful kitchen in the Netherlands. And when you see the kitchens that were showcased there—the designs, the challenges they faced—and how those kitchen salespeople actually tailor their recommendations to the customer’s needs. And the moment a customer is interested in certain things—where it comes from, where it’s made—they can tell them all about it.
Jerry Helmers: Of course, we also try to convey that as part of that process—to share it directly with kitchen showroom salespeople and communicate it to specialty kitchen retailers.
Leo van der Velde: “Showroom”—that’s such a lovely word, too.
Jerry Helmers: Showroom. But how do you think they should go about it? Because they have to get that knowledge from somewhere, of course.
Leo van der Velde: We have an entire wall of them at DTC.
Jerry Helmers: A Dekker Trend Center?
Leo van der Velde: Yes, we have an entire wall dedicated to that, where we showcase, for example, the materials we use in our corporate social responsibility efforts. What does that mean? One of the key elements is, of course, the circular economy. What does the Green Deal mean? Using fewer materials, turning waste into new products, and reusing them. We explain that there and show all those components. This is recycled PET from your Spa bottle—what happens to it? What is it turned into? And we show that there. And there are some business owners who like that; they display those items made from recycled materials in their stores, dedicating a small section to explain the story. And of course, there’s a big difference: some customer groups are more interested than others. Basically, when it comes to circularity, it’s not really on the consumer’s mind—that’s one of your points—and it certainly isn’t a top priority.
Jerry Helmers: It’s often the case that if something costs too much, circularity is immediately set aside. After all, people can only spend their money once.
[19:46] Circularity, functionality, and price comparability
Leo van der Velde: Yes, but that doesn’t just apply to kitchen countertops. It actually applies to everything. If you want to develop circular and sustainable products, you have to make sure those products are, first and foremost, functional. The same goes for clothes. Of course, you could just put on a burlap sack. That might be very eco-friendly, but it’s not very comfortable. It doesn’t look good either. You’d end up with all those red bumps everywhere, so that wouldn’t make you happy. And it doesn’t look nice either. So it’s not functional. It has to be functional. Because otherwise, only a very small percentage of people will buy it. It also has to look good, because very few people wear a burlap sack. It’s absolutely not pleasant to look at. And you want to look good; you want to wear nice clothes. So functionality and design are important. So those products have to meet those criteria. And the third thing is: it has to be price-competitive with other products. Because if you’re not able to offer those products at a comparable price—but they’re ten times as expensive—then you have the disadvantage that, in all those cases, maybe only 0.11% of people would be willing to buy really ugly things just because they’re sustainable. And there might also be one person who wants to buy a completely non-functional product. And there are also people who can afford to pay ten times as much and want to. But then you have no footprint at all, because then only 1% of people are buying anything, and it has zero effect on our entire society. Then it has no effect on CO2, it has zero effect on sustainability. So the point is that it has to be interesting to the general public.
Jerry Helmers: Still, I want to know: where does this consumer desire to know all that come from? How does that relate to the spirit of the times we’re living in?
Leo van der Velde: Yes, I think we’re gradually becoming more aware of this—though not all of us. If you look at the U.S., they can afford it too. People in their 50s and 60s are often even more interested than the middle-aged group in whether the material is good, whether it’s healthy, and whether it was produced fairly.
Jerry Helmers: Well, people in their 50s and 60s—the baby boomers—can afford it.
Leo van der Velde: Yes, and they want the best for their children and grandchildren. I also understand that when you’re buying your first home and you’re stretching your budget to the limit, price becomes a more important factor than sustainability. But if it costs the same, then no one is going to say: hey, do you have a product there that pollutes and poisons the environment? Well, I’ll take that one. If it costs the same, then… The point is that we as an industry need to be able to make products that are functionally sound, that are high-quality. So they’re attractive, because aesthetics are obviously important when you have a kitchen. And they don’t cost more than a comparable product. And if we develop that, everyone will want to buy it.
[22:30] The Story of Sustainability in the Specialty Retail Sector
Jerry Helmers: Do you think specialty retailers should be able to tell that story too? Or to put it another way: can anyone just become your customer?
Leo van der Velde: Two different questions.
Jerry Helmers: Yes, but they're closely related.
Leo van der Velde: The first point is: I believe that, as a salesperson, you shouldn’t pester a customer with something you want to do. So if a customer walks in and you notice they’re not interested in that, but they’re interested in a certain type of design or color or layout, or they have small children and want a durable, safe-to-use, easy-to-maintain kitchen, then you should focus on that. And I think salespeople do that too. But the moment you’re designing the kitchen and you make a comment about it and you see that the customer is receptive to it and interested in it, then you can tell them a bit more about it. Because then you might be able to set yourself apart from someone else. But you have to test the waters first to see: is that customer actually interested in that? I think: you shouldn’t be pushy, trying to sell people on some kind of missionary story.
Jerry Helmers: And that does indeed bring us to the communication between the kitchen retailer and the consumer. But looking at it from Dekker Zevenhuizen’s perspective: do you ever turn down a kitchen retailer, telling them that you don’t want them to become our customer?
Leo van der Velde: Yes, especially when people can’t pay their bills—that’s obviously a major concern for us. But what about a customer who says to us, “Hey Leo, I’m not really into circular products; I just want a good product at a good price”? If that’s the case, we say: “Well, then you need Greengridz, because that’s the best product at the best price.” We don’t bring up the fact that it just happens to be the most circular option—we let them sell it as they see fit.
Jerry Helmers: Everyone is welcome.
Leo van der Velde: Basically, everyone is welcome, of course.
Jerry Helmers: Clear. Another thing I’d like to discuss with you—and something I think is definitely interesting for every showroom salesperson—is that we’re recording this podcast in 2026. There are trends. And of course, you’re already working with a trend forecaster. The most important trends in the kitchen industry: materialization.
[24:34] Trends in Colors and Materials
Leo van der Velde: What’s really interesting to see is that five years ago, the best-selling colors… I remember Peter Hoordijk gave a presentation at a kitchen industry conference, and the projector wasn’t very good, so you couldn’t really make out the details. The pixels were blurry from where we were sitting. But you could see five black spots, and there was variation in those spots—dots and clouds and a little more gray. But basically, five years ago, the best-selling colors were actually shades of black and gray. And if you look now at what’s selling a lot, you see that it’s brown tones, sand tones. And the funny thing is that we saw that this actually started with ceramic countertops. Because in the past, a lot of laminate was sold. Then composite material became very popular for a while. That’s still the most popular material among stone types. And at some point, ceramic was added to the mix. And ceramic is, of course, a fired tile. So you can print on it—you can photograph beautiful natural stones and print them onto the tile. There isn’t much of a price difference between printing something with a subtle blend of colors, a simple solid color, or printing a very wild-looking quartzite pattern on it. And so you saw that people often opted for those really beautiful, slightly…
Jerry Helmers: Piet. Yeah, my throat feels a little scratchy. I’ll just get some water. That’ll be helpful for you. Where do those sandy tones come from?
Leo van der Velde: I don’t really know. But what I do know is that there’s a shift, so to speak, among people who think: yes, I like sand, I like brown tones, I like warm colors. So, of course, there’s already a psychological theory that says: yes, in cold times, people want warm colors. So that could very well be an effect. But back then you saw wild brown tones, the large veins with lots of color variations. And now you see that becoming a bit more subdued, but those earth tones, that brown, you can still see it there. And the funny thing is that we first saw that in ceramics, then we saw it appearing in laminate as well, and only after that did we see it appearing in composite. And that’s the interesting thing: in composite, there’s a big price difference between simple and complex composites. Because you have to make them with robots and multiple mixers. So that has to do with the production process. And there you see a big price difference between simple colors and difficult, more complex colors. But you don’t see that in ceramics, and you see it much less in laminate. And now you’re seeing those colors appear in composite as well. So you see that people first like something, but price does have an effect on that.
Jerry Helmers: Great. Another trend in the kitchen industry—though perhaps a global one—is artificial intelligence and technological advancements. What are your thoughts on that? And what doesn’t that showroom salesperson need to know about all of that by now?
[27:24] Artificial Intelligence and the Food Service Industry
Leo van der Velde: It’s obviously an incredibly interesting and complex subject. And how is that going to change our lives? In marketing, you can already see it: anyone can type something into ChatGPT and see the text get improved. And then you can say: make it more charming, or make it more effective from a sales perspective. So you can already see that everyone is using it.
Jerry Helmers: Yes, it has been fully embraced over the past two or three years.
Leo van der Velde: My kids have used it a lot, too.
Jerry Helmers: But I know that as a general manager, as a director, you’re also thinking about what AI can do for Dekker Zevenhuizen—and therefore for the industry as well.
Leo van der Velde: Yes, the fact is that when you look at it, you see a few areas where the use of AI could improve our processes. For example, we’ve had a project group for about six months now, and they’re actually trying to scan the drawings we receive to see if we can use them to populate our product configurators. So that all the information on a kitchen countertop can be captured using AI pattern recognition… AI scans lung X-rays better than even the best surgeons do. So you can use pattern recognition to identify cancer cells, for example. Well, then it must also be possible to scan a drawing—and I know other companies are working on this—to process the drawings and the information so that you can actually use them to process your order. We have a training bot running here, where we’ve put our sales manual, our maintenance guidelines, our assembly instructions… These have, of course, been updated and improved every year over the years. We’ve put all of that into such an agent and then programmed various agents around it to generate answers to questions. Well, sometimes an inconsistency pops up from our sales manual, because it gives a strange answer. And it turns out we wrote that ten years ago and never updated it. But we’ve written something different here, so you can remove that. But it helps us, too. We always say: we want to have a human in the loop. So our office staff member types in the question, gets the answer, and can still assess whether such a question or answer is appropriate.
Jerry Helmers: But does a showroom salesperson need to know about that?
Leo van der Velde: No, but things can happen in the showroom, too. For example, you could go to the AI and say, “I like these pictures from Instagram—can you design a kitchen for me? And here’s my floor plan.” Then you’ll see that the AI is already designing kitchens and generating proposals.
Jerry Helmers: Isn’t it also true that these days, consumers walk into specialty stores with their own designs—which they’ve essentially created using ChatGPT—and say something like, “Hello, kitchen specialty store, this is what I want”?
Leo van der Velde: Yes, I think that still happens relatively rarely. But of course there are many young people who develop almost everything using AI, and it’s certainly a real possibility that people will start coming in with their own designs this way. What you do hear a lot from kitchen studios is that people come in with a sort of mood board. That they’ve collected everything they want on Pinterest. Like: I like this—a sofa style with a painting, curtains, and flooring. And this is the kind of style I see myself in.
Jerry Helmers: So shouldn’t Dekker Zevenhuizen respond to that? Because the market is changing in terms of how consumers make choices or weigh their options to reach a decision. Surely Dekker Zevenhuizen needs to do something about that?
Leo van der Velde: First and foremost, it’s naturally the retailers who are thinking about this. They own the showrooms; they own the stores. They provide consumers with guidance to help them arrive at a good design. A lot of what you get from AI isn’t exactly perfect either. You have to keep checking it. I had a kitchen built there just for fun. Well, that’s not a functional kitchen. And it just had three stovetops in it. So then you think: yeah, what are you supposed to do with that? It wasn’t something I wanted. I’d recommend two dishwashers to anyone. But three stovetops is a bit excessive. So, and I think the human touch—the goodwill factor—is essential. And AI doesn’t have that “goodwill factor” yet, at least not yet. I don’t know what that will look like in the future. But that human element is incredibly important in those kitchen stores. They create that goodwill factor and help clarify what you actually want, what you want to use. And AI can prepare the consumer in all sorts of ways with information, about products, about what they like. And of course, the specialty retailer can also use it to leverage their own information. Knowledge base, FAQs, common questions that come up a lot. And of course, building that database is quite a challenge. You have to think about the question and think about the answer. Yes, now we have this kind of agent where we’ve put everything in. And you can just ask it a normal question. And then it comes up with an answer. And of course, that’s certainly not perfect yet. But it will be. So that also means that information becomes available to the trade. But at some point, it’s also available, of course, to people who aren’t technically involved with it, meaning consumers. And then there’s always the question—the risk: what conclusions will someone draw from what they get from the system? And that’s why it’s super important that the salesperson, the designer, provides that context and helps the customer, so the customer feels confident.
[32:22] Training and expertise of the kitchen salesperson
Jerry Helmers: Does that salesperson really train themselves enough? Don’t they need to keep brushing up on their knowledge all the time?
Leo van der Velde: Yeah, that’s actually quite a lot of work.
Jerry Helmers: But does that actually happen?
Leo van der Velde: I think an enormous amount of time goes into figuring out how to create a design and what kind of knowledge you have about which products. Maybe it’s never enough, but it’s really not easy to design a good kitchen. Just try laying out all those kitchen books side by side, and then look at all those countertops. You should really go through our own book if you want to choose a countertop and figure out what to consider when designing it—the corners, edges, cutouts, and the types of sinks and cooktops you want to include. Well, you really do need to know a thing or two about it to sell it well and then order it correctly, so it can also be installed properly. Well, of course AI can do a lot, but it’ll still take a while. And I think it’s sometimes underestimated. I’ve heard people say: yeah, a kitchen salesperson is kind of like a used car salesman. I don’t mean to be disrespectful to car salespeople, who have the best reputation. And I think that’s completely unfair. When you consider how much knowledge, expertise, and support they provide, and how happy people are once they’ve bought their kitchen—how much they’ve been helped. And of course, there are good and bad examples everywhere, but I think the qualities of kitchen salespeople are really underestimated.
Jerry Helmers: You’re a true ambassador for any showroom, whether you’re a man or a woman. That’s how it sounds to me, right?
Leo van der Velde: Look, when you consider the retail sector, the added value of a kitchen showroom is something you could debate if you wanted to. But the fact is, kitchen showrooms are doing incredibly well, because consumers apparently really appreciate what happens in those kitchen studios. If you have an electronics store: 20 years ago, you had electronics stores; you’d go there to buy a washing machine or a TV and so on. Well, of course, they’re all gone now. Even MediaMarkt and Saturn were sold to some Chinese conglomerate, because everything comes down to half a percent more or less. Everyone looks online to see what that thing does, how much it costs. And then they want the cheapest one. And the added value is relatively limited. And the profit margins are also very limited, because the consumer doesn’t feel like they’re paying for something that’s actually worth it to them. Well, in the kitchen industry, that is indeed the case. There, the consumer apparently feels the added value provided by that kitchen salesperson. So you can’t underestimate the fact that such a kitchen salesperson is apparently doing something very well.
[34:43] Cooking, Living, and the Kitchen of the Future
Jerry Helmers: Okay. From the consumer’s perspective, what is the most significant trend in cooking?
Leo van der Velde: Yeah, that's an interesting one.
Jerry Helmers: Last but not least.
Leo van der Velde: Yes, when I think about that, it reminds me of a presentation Professor Latten gave to our Supervisory Board a few weeks ago. He was the chief economist at Statistics Netherlands and had conducted a comprehensive analysis of what the world will look like in ten years. Demographic trends, migration waves, clustering.
Jerry Helmers: He’s the one who wrote that famous book, isn’t he? At least, that’s what I see mentioned quite often. Are you talking about that professor?
Leo van der Velde: Professor Latten is passing away; I’m not sure which book you’re referring to. But he specializes in demographic trends, socio-demographic trends. And he’s also a professor in Amsterdam. And he showed what things will actually look like in 10 or 15 years. And then he says: you’re actually seeing clustering. There’s massive clustering in the Randstad, so around the major cities. And those homes all have to be smaller there, because otherwise it’ll get way too expensive. And we’re also seeing a huge shift toward single-income households. Yes, people get divorced, or when they’re older they split up, or they simply don’t want to live together anymore. He had all sorts of theories about that. And ultimately, you end up with a huge number of small homes, 40 or 50 square meters in size, where everything has to fit. And you get dual-income couples who move to the outskirts of the city to live in a single-family home. And they have a bit more room for larger kitchens with cooking islands. But in those 40 square meters, you have to integrate everything. The kitchen has to be integrated there.
Jerry Helmers: Will people cook more? Will they opt for more exotic dishes? Will they go for simpler meals? And anyway, people tend to eat exotic food when they go out.
Leo van der Velde: That’s actually quite funny, what you’re saying. Because he said: there are trends, for example in New York, where you see that there simply isn’t a kitchen anymore. Because people basically just eat outside. And yeah, if you can only afford 30 square meters there, well, would you even bother with a kitchen? He actually saw this trend developing here, where the kitchen is integrated into the living area. So the kitchen is basically the dining table.
Jerry Helmers: Isn't that already the case?
Leo van der Velde: No, but in that small space. So you don’t have room for a really big kitchen, because then you wouldn’t have room for a chair, a table, or a TV. And so it turned out that you actually had a space—an integrated space, small—where the kitchen is multifunctional.
Jerry Helmers: Yeah, so it’s a bit more than just putting a microwave on a stool.
Leo van der Velde: Yes, for example, one product we presented a while back was a cooktop that you mount underneath your countertop. And now there are several models available. Many brands that understand induction technology have since introduced this type of product.
Jerry Helmers: But when you start talking about what the kitchen of the future will look like—the kitchen of, say, the year 2040—then you have to acknowledge that we’re all going to be living in smaller homes.
Leo van der Velde: A lot of people are downsizing.
Jerry Helmers: The fact that so many people are downsizing, whatever the reason may be. And therefore, the modularity of the various components of the kitchens.
Leo van der Velde: That kitchen countertop also serves as your dining table. You play games there, too. You also sit there to work when you need to get some work done on your own. So you’ll start to see those kinds of trends. You’ll also see that people will likely spend less and less time eating—not when you’re hosting guests, but in general. So how can you prepare your food quickly is a key factor here. I happened to be in Osaka at the World Expo, and there was a presentation on the kitchen of the future. And there you saw an AI-generated grandfather who was in a nursing home but was present as an avatar. He was also sitting at the table, celebrating his birthday with everyone. And everything was actually digitized. But what was real was that they were all sitting together in the kitchen around the dining table, happily celebrating a birthday. So the idea behind that, based on that Japanese philosophy, was that ultimately, being together—whether you’re physically present or virtually present as an avatar—means celebrating your grandson’s birthday together around a dining table with a cake. And so the kitchen is actually becoming more and more the center of doing things together and being multifunctional. Yes, I think you’ll see those kinds of developments in the brain and in the kitchen.
Jerry Helmers: That’s how the kitchen brings people together. Cooking brings people together.
Leo van der Velde: Yes, it’s really the centerpiece. And we at Dekkers always say: the countertop is the face of your kitchen. So that’s also the most important part. I just wanted to mention that.
Jerry Helmers: All right, you’ll have your 90 seconds of speaking time for the commercial break later on.
Leo van der Velde: I'm not going to repeat it 90 times in a row.
Jerry Helmers: No, that’s true. But you can fill that in yourself. Well, before we move on to those 90 seconds, I’d still like to ask you: can we share two or three good business tips here that those kitchen specialty stores can put into practice tomorrow? Or am I catching you off guard with this question?
[39:34] Entrepreneurship and Community Engagement
Leo van der Velde: No, what I find really important is that these kitchen specialty stores are often family-run businesses or independent entrepreneurs, and they bring people together. Last Friday—and I’d like to share this—I was at KBC Scharnegoutum in Friesland, which was celebrating its 50th anniversary. The owner, who is now nearly 80, gave a speech. And his two sons, who have been running the business for eight or nine years now, were there. And what else was there? Their children were there—they’re into cycling—and they’d organized a charity event. And others went running; they’d organized a charity event. The alderman was there, because they received a certificate of recognition—they were world-famous throughout Friesland. And there you could actually see a tremendous sense of community forming. And money was raised through intense cycling and running. And that went to a foundation.
Jerry Helmers: So what’s the tip?
Leo van der Velde: The connection to the community. It’s about how you conduct yourself as an entrepreneur. You create jobs and produce great products. You’re working to foster social cohesion.
Jerry Helmers: So is this a form of corporate social responsibility? In other words, you’re basically saying: “Dear kitchen specialty store, sponsor the local tennis club.”.
Leo van der Velde: You can do that; that’s fine too.
Jerry Helmers: Yes, but I'm just trying to figure out exactly what you mean.
Leo van der Velde: In this case, funds were raised to enable children from lower-income families to attend local sporting events and outings. But what matters to me is that if we all drift further apart, there will be no sense of community and no cohesion. And then we’ll all be living in a world of loners. And that doesn’t make life any better in terms of well-being.
Jerry Helmers: But what does that actually look like in practice? I’m really looking for a very specific tip right now. The podcast will be wrapping up soon, and the listener will be thinking: Okay, what did I hear, and what am I going to do tomorrow morning?
Leo van der Velde: What I really appreciate—and what I therefore love to see in entrepreneurs—is that they position themselves within a network where they foster cohesion and engagement in the community where they live. Whether that’s the soccer club, the tennis club, or a school, the point is that businesses work together to ensure there are jobs in the region, that products are made, and that schools are available. That kind of entrepreneurship…
Jerry Helmers: Wasn't that already happening?
Leo van der Velde: Yes, but that’s exactly what you need to cherish. You have to make sure you keep doing that and don’t drift apart from one another, become bitter, and think: well, I’ll just sell what I can, and the rest doesn’t really matter to me, because soon the whole world will be out of oil.
Jerry Helmers: In short, take an interest in your immediate surroundings and do something about it.
Leo van der Velde: Yes, because your customers are, of course, simply the people in your immediate community. And I think—and this is what we do as a company—that our family considers this important. It all started in Zevenhuizen, and we try to do the same at all our locations. And I think that having your feet on the ground and being engaged with your community—that’s an incredible added value and also a hallmark of a small business owner, even in the kitchen.
Jerry Helmers: That’s the first tip. Do you have a second tip for entrepreneurs?
[42:27] Staying competitive as an entrepreneur
Leo van der Velde: Yeah, a second piece of entrepreneurial advice is this: I’ve listened back to a few of your podcasts, and you often hear advice about kitchen studios and this and that… What I find so incredibly inspiring is that there are so many entrepreneurs making a difference in their own way. They’re innovating on their own. Some make TikTok videos and are super successful with them. Others focus on sustainability and build a narrative around it. Some create extremely beautiful and expensive kitchens. Others make it easy for people to buy a simple kitchen from them. And what I really love is that diversity among entrepreneurs who all do things their own way, creating added value for customers. And I really want to say that. I think that’s impressive, and I think it’s great. And you should definitely keep doing that.
Jerry Helmers: You shouldn’t all end up being cookie-cutter copies of each other. So here’s my advice: don’t be a cookie-cutter copy.
Leo van der Velde: That's the tip.
Jerry Helmers: I'm trying to get a clearer picture of things.
Leo van der Velde: These are things I really appreciate when I look at the kitchen industry, and I can see that customers clearly appreciate them too, because they’re willing to recognize that added value in the stores. And of course, you can recommend: we have beautiful, high-quality, sustainable products—buy them, because they’ll serve you very well. And that we’ve developed the Color Experience, for example, so you can see very large panels beautifully displayed in the showroom.
Jerry Helmers: But you’ll have to explain that in 90 seconds.
Leo van der Velde: No, but I mean, as suppliers, we also need to make sure we support the specialty retail sector. With attractive displays, new techniques, and great products—to make things easier for them.
Jerry Helmers: But you can say that in the 90 seconds, because we’re almost there now. I always call that the commercial break, so I’ll give the listeners a heads-up: “Hey, here comes a 90-second commercial break.” I don’t know if you’ve prepared anything, but you have a minute and a half to say whatever you want. I won’t interrupt you. I’ll set the timer here, too.
Leo van der Velde: Oh, I see.
Jerry Helmers: So, of course, my question now is for you: are you ready for your 90 seconds?
Leo van der Velde: Yeah, I’m just mentally preparing myself. And if you say yes, then I’ll definitely go.
[44:15] The 90-second commercial spot
Leo van der Velde: At Dekker, our ambition is to ensure that our customers, employees, and suppliers experience that we are not only the largest but also the best custom countertop supplier in Europe. And that’s why there are actually two key points I’d like to discuss. And I think one of them has already been covered quite thoroughly. The first is: working with Dekker is a pleasure. Working with Dekker is a pleasure. And that ties into what I was saying about that enormous goodwill factor you need to have. Our customers have goodwill toward the consumer, and I hope we have goodwill toward our customers and that they experience it that way too—so they feel that it’s a pleasure to work with Dekker. And the second part, which is very important, is: things run smoothly at Dekker. Because when you look at it, I told you before with Arie Dekker: everyone needs to keep working. But right now, it’s pretty tough to find good employees, especially in production environments. There’s obviously a shortage of staff. And how do you ensure that everyone feels it’s actually enjoyable to work together? That you exhibit certain behaviors toward me. So we’ve created a behavioral compass that states you should be committed to delivering top quality. That doesn’t mean you have to be a perfectionist, but you also shouldn’t think: well, well, well, that was well-intentioned. Ambitious, daring, attuned, considerate. If you recognize yourself in those values, then you should actually have the space to develop within our company. And not through the German model, but the Dutch model we were talking about, where you take ownership yourself. And if you want to know more about it, check out www.mydekker.com.
Jerry Helmers: It couldn’t have been any crazier. The big boss from Dekker was here today. Yeah, I think now I need to come up with a little rhyme of my own, based on the rhymes you used during your 90-second speaking slot. You took a little over 90 seconds, but I’ll forgive you for that. Boy, can you tell a story! You really are a true ambassador for the company, I think. But you have to be, don’t you, if you’re in that job?
[46:22] Family business, continuity, and enthusiasm
Leo van der Velde: Yes, it’s just an incredibly wonderful company. That’s why our mindset isn’t just about “doing things the usual way.” It’s not about getting ahead of ourselves, but about tackling things head-on—and doing so in an extraordinary way. And yes, the great thing is that our shareholders have decided that all profits are reinvested in the organization to drive innovation and sustainable business practices. And of course, it’s actually quite special that your family makes that decision. That ensures continuity, and that’s really nice.
Jerry Helmers: So if you get to be the top dog at the top, let me put it this way.
Leo van der Velde: Well, or whether it’s turned upside down and the one on the bottom.
Jerry Helmers: You’ll have to figure out for yourself how that pyramid is structured. But you know what I mean. No, but I think it would be really fun to work every day at a company with that kind of approach.
Leo van der Velde: Yes, it's hard not to be enthusiastic.
Jerry Helmers: It’s hard not to be excited. Are you excited about the podcast we’ve recorded so far? Off the top of my head, I’d say we’ve been talking for about fifty minutes.
Leo van der Velde: Yeah, I enjoyed chatting with you about it. We were pretty evenly matched.
Jerry Helmers: Ik hoopte dat het een beetje interessant was ook voor de mensen. Nou ja, zou de luisteraar er nu nog zijn? Degene die nu luisteren zijn er nog, dus hartstikke bedankt voor het luisteren. Ja, dat is heel goed. Ik zeg als eerste tegen jou, Leo, hartelijk dank voor je komst hier naar de studio in Weert. En ik zeg vanzelfsprekend tegen alle luisteraars, inderdaad, bedankt voor het luisteren. Je luisterde naar Keukencast, de podcast voor iedere vakprofessional in de keukenbranche. Natuurlijk mogelijk gemaakt door Louwers Mediagroep. Projectmanager is Folkert van der Werf. De techniek is en was, en blijft in handen van Daan Halters. Mijn naam is Jerry Helmers. Ik ben en blijf je podcastpresentator. Ik zeg nog één keer: tot de volgende keer. Bedankt voor het luisteren.
