Transcript
[00:03] Introduction of the episode
Jerry Helmers: This is KeukenCast, the podcast for trade professionals with ambition in the kitchen industry. In each episode, an expert joins us to discuss the most important trends, themes and developments. And we don't shy away from discussion either. At the kitchen table, on the kitchen table, under the kitchen table, we do it all. My name is Jerry Helmers, I am your host and presenter. You're most welcome. Yes, and who will be your guest on this episode of KitchenCast? None other than Patrick Leering is sitting across from me. Chief founder, CEO, founder, entrepreneur of DecoLegno. Once started in Westzaan, incidentally still based in Westzaan.
Patrick Leering: In the Zaan region.
Jerry Helmers: In the Zaan region I should indeed say. Now pretty much all over the world, I could almost say.
Patrick Leering: It's an international name, DecoLegno. Yes, it just might.
Jerry Helmers: It just might. Patrick, a warm welcome. Did you have a good trip from the Zaan region to the studio here in Weert?
Patrick Leering: Yes, perfect. Down the A2, that's great.
Jerry Helmers: Then you had a lucky day.
Patrick Leering: Yes, definitely.
Jerry Helmers: You came in in good spirits.
Patrick Leering: It's also the time of day, so that's good.
[01:13] Maarten is absent, but present nonetheless
Jerry Helmers: Yes, that is true indeed. That still sometimes wants to make a difference. Although in the Netherlands you don't always know indeed. Today, as an exception, there are only two of us. Normally this podcast includes our inspiring sidekick Maarten Zegstroo. I always call him my kitchen guru. Unfortunately, he is not on this episode. Yes, that's how it goes sometimes. He'll be on all subsequent episodes. But still, in the middle of this podcast, he gets, I should say, what we call Maarten's Minute. So Maarten, this podcast you will undoubtedly listen back to. You'll come on board soon with your column and we, Patrick, will then later respond to his column. I'm very curious.
[01:55] The first propositions
Jerry Helmers: Yes. We're going to start, at least I'm going to before I want you to be introduced a little bit more closely - who are you, where are you from - present you with three statements. And then my question is whether you want to answer them with either agree or disagree. I'm already all excited about it. Agree or disagree.
Patrick Leering: Interesting statements.
Jerry Helmers: Yes, yes, yes. So are you ready?
Patrick Leering: Yes.
Jerry Helmers: Kitchen stores too often talk about appliances and not enough about ambiance.
Patrick Leering: Agreed.
Jerry Helmers: You agree with that. There will be another statement. A well-chosen setting can still make a mediocre kitchen special.
Patrick Leering: Agreed.
Jerry Helmers: Agreed, and the last statement for you now. A customer usually doesn't know what he wants until he sees it.
Patrick Leering: Disagree.
Jerry Helmers: Disagree. Okay. No doubt we're going to come back to this. I just had a quick sit down with you and write down exactly what you said on these statements.
[02:57] Patrick Leering introduces himself
Jerry Helmers: Patrick, for the few in the kitchen industry - I can't speak for everyone, of course - who have never heard of you: I would say, introduce yourself. And of course in such a way that nobody in the kitchen industry will ever forget you.
Patrick Leering: You do give me a lot of credit and honor. If you really look at the kitchen industry, we as DecoLegno are not very active ourselves. We do that through manufacturers who sell our brand. My name is Patrick Leering, founder together with Annemarie Wallenburg and Guido Hofman of the company DecoLegno. We started in Zaandijk, a town in the Zaanstad. And actually grown as a supplier to interior builders and furniture makers, who make custom kitchens and furniture from our sheet material, which we import from Italy. A lot also goes through an architect in between, who makes proposals. We are now located in Westzaan, with a nice showroom and office. A number of branches also in the Netherlands where we have a number of showrooms, where people can also experience our decors. And we do it now with seventy people.
[04:07] From small beginnings to growing business
Jerry Helmers: With seventy people. Yes, it's a nice entrepreneurship story. We already know each other a little bit, at least a little bit longer. And I want to start talking about your entrepreneurship in that sense. That's one of the themes I want to discuss. I also want to talk to you later about current trends. What might kitchen specialty stores be looking out for? Also in the design of their own showrooms. We're going to talk about customization choices, how important that is. Or how relevant that might be. And I want to talk about your weekly coffee moment at the end of this podcast.
Patrick Leering: Oh yeah, nice.
Jerry Helmers: At least on LinkedIn, I think you have become world famous for that.
Patrick Leering: We'll devote a little more time to that later.
Jerry Helmers: Yes, exactly indeed. Then we know what exactly is behind that for strategy. Anyway, entrepreneurship is also part of the business, so to speak. I think about fifteen, fifteen, sixteen years ago, I think that's when I met you for the first time. We don't see each other every day either. Not that listeners think it's becoming another kind of old boy currant-bread podcast, of two of those guys all sticking feathers up each other's ass. Of course, we don't see each other every day. But I do remember walking into your house fifteen, sixteen years ago, somewhere in the Zaan region. And that I had to go up an old wooden staircase, I think. And that I also understood from my client: go to DecoLegno, an interview has to be conducted and it is a start-up company. And that I got in there, that it was kind of cozy chaos. You guys were just starting out. I don't know, I can't even remember exactly if there were desks. But I also remember that I think your wife was there. And that I thought, I may be paraphrasing for a moment, I don't remember what I literally thought at the time either, I think: oh yes, another one of those guys who is going to start in his little attic room. And would that ever amount to anything? Well, it turned out pretty well. But just tell me that entrepreneurship story. How that went from that, yes, I call it that little attic, or it was somewhere in a business park I believe, to where you've grown to now. Because I find it very inspiring.
[06:09] How DecoLegno began
Patrick Leering: Thank you very much. Well, at least it did indeed start at our kitchen table and in the attic. Because yes, we didn't have an office, just our home. And actually, the brand Cleaf, that comes from Italy, its decorative sheet material, and I once came across that at a fair in Germany, the ‘interzum. And that manufacturer presented itself there. And I was actually immediately impressed by the structures, the colors that they were producing at that time as decor chipboard. It was really distinctive from other brands in the market.
Jerry Helmers: Where did you come from already in this industry? So what were you doing before you started for yourself?
Patrick Leering: I worked at Baars & Bloemhoff for just under fifteen years. There I was ultimately responsible commercially for the branches we had, but also for the acquisition of new products. So I was also often visiting trade shows. I talked to a lot of suppliers. But the moment I saw that brand Cleaf, I really thought: this is cool.
Jerry Helmers: Why was it cool?
Patrick Leering: Yes, that's because you don't know it. The structures in the slabs, it's Italian. The texture experience is very important. Back then you had a lot of, if you had melamine sheets, it was smooth. There was a wood grain in it. It had a little bit of the plastic look. And this had already really evolved from: is this wood or is this also melamine? Well, that feeling with it and then also of course the designs that the Italians make, that Italian sauce over it. Yes, that really brought me to that wow effect. And I was actually in love with that brand right away as well. And we got into a conversation, took it to Holland. And in the end, unfortunately, I didn't get the hands together at Baars & Bloemhoff at the time.
Jerry Helmers: Then, unfortunately.
Patrick Leering: But a product like that stays on your desk and you think: this is different, what am I going to do with it? I went to a number of architects with it, clients I knew from the industry for a long time. And everyone had the same reaction as me. They also said: decor chipboard, beautiful. And that's it. And then I really did have the perception of: yes guys, this is a product I can pick up myself. And with knowledge and know-how of the market over the past twenty years, I know where to go with this product.
[08:31] Entrepreneurship during the crisis
Jerry Helmers: But then you really have to go into business. Because apart from your love and passion for the product and the knowledge you have, you're going to be working at your own risk and expense. Well, your wife immediately agreed.
Patrick Leering: Ah, who was in love with it too.
Jerry Helmers: Who was also in love with it. That's infatuation, too.
Patrick Leering: No, but I think the best entrepreneur is when you're knee-deep in muck. Because you have to, you know, you can't fall back on nothing. Your money is in it, your energy, your passion. So you have to move forward. And actually we started off quite energetically also in 2010.
Jerry Helmers: What was there in 2010?
Patrick Leering: Yes, then I must now...
Jerry Helmers: Yes, the crisis had just passed. The banking crisis.
Patrick Leering: Yes, the banks also said: boy, are you construction-related, are you crazy? What are you starting? Interior construction, construction-related, housing market on its ass, no credit, et cetera.
Jerry Helmers: Because you thought: this crisis will end sometime?
Patrick Leering: Anyway, yes. But something very beautiful can also arise in a crisis. Because at the time we started DecoLegno and came up with those products, a lot of architects, but also interior builders, had time. Because the order book was not very full. They had time to talk to you. What kind of product is that? And there was time and opportunity to learn about the product.
Jerry Helmers: Government foresight?
Patrick Leering: Well that. So eventually they also saw the added value of the product. Yes, and then after first seven months comes such an order. It gives me goose bumps again.
Jerry Helmers: Did the flag go out? A little flag, on that little, messy office over there.
Patrick Leering: Yeah, yeah, yeah. But that really gives you goosebumps. Now again. That you think: after seven months of being active in the market, you get your first order. And then you know: now I have landed.
[10:34] Continue to innovate and dare to be different
Jerry Helmers: But did you know it would all go so incredibly well?
Patrick Leering: No, of course not.
Jerry Helmers: No. Of course, it's always easy to talk in hindsight. And what is the most important choice you made in your entrepreneurship? I mean, this piece is obviously briefly about you and your business, but is there a lesson learned in there for everybody? For example, for the listeners.
Patrick Leering: I just say: keep innovating, keep new in keep surprising. In our case, what I always say and what is also in my DNA: do things differently than others. I always want to be distinctive. That you say: oh yes, that's really DecoLegno. And make sure you know how to find the right people around you at some point.
Jerry Helmers: How do you know if they are the right people?
Patrick Leering: Or you rely on a good recruitment agency, which helps you on your way in finding the right people. And dare to pay something for that, too. Because it all does cost money. But people around you, they do ensure that your business can evolve. And that is very important.
[11:45] The risk of one supplier
Jerry Helmers: Okay. Is it a risk to import only from Italy?
Patrick Leering: Yes, that's what the bank used to say.
Jerry Helmers: Well, well, now I'm saying it. Jerry Helmers, my name is podcast presenter and occasional critic. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's well, I mean, I do think it's a legitimate question.
Patrick Leering: Definitely. It is. Of course, it's already a risk when you rig your whole business to one supplier.
Jerry Helmers: That's what I mean. It could be over in one fell swoop maybe, right? I mean, you yourself now have tremendous-you have seventy employees. That's a responsibility though. So why not diversify a little more?
Patrick Leering: We see that focus on our product and our brand has brought us to where we are today. Meanwhile, we also see that our manufacturer has taken certain steps to make their operations more secure, even for the longer term. That also helps us in that confidence in Cleaf. And vice versa, we sold ten percent of our shares to Cleaf last year.
Jerry Helmers: Ah.
Patrick Leering: So they are now ten percent owners also of DecoLegno. And from that money we opened another branch in Belgium.
[13:07] Ambitions for growth
Jerry Helmers: Yes, so what are the ambitions for the next few years?
Patrick Leering: Are we already there, yes?
Jerry Helmers: Yes? Is there anything else in between? Well, well, showrooms you have expanded, they are in several places.
Patrick Leering: Yes, well, anyway: we do feel that about an hour from your home somewhere there should be something from DecoLegno. So we will really open some more showrooms around the country in the coming years. This also applies to Belgium, because we see that this really adds value to the experience of our brand and product. There are also interior design professionals there who can help our clients' customers get started.
Jerry Helmers: So those are the customers of the customers?
Patrick Leering: Yes.
Jerry Helmers: So the kitchen specialists or interior designers can send their customers to your showroom to experience the material?
Patrick Leering: Yes, that does happen. There are kitchen stores that sell our program and end up saying to their client: make another appointment with DecoLegno, because then you can see the large panels of 3.20 by 1.50 meters.
Jerry Helmers: Yes, that works better than little samples of thirty square inches.
Patrick Leering: Yes, that.
And then the moment those customers are in our showroom, they are helped by an interior design professional. Panels are well explained, a story is told about what you can and cannot do with decor chipboard. And the customers are convinced by the product they then see.
[14:57] From entrepreneur to organizational leader
Jerry Helmers: So yes, with your work has also become very different. Because in the beginning, of course, you were literally doing that material yourself, figuring it out. Now you're really running a corporate company. Don't you find that a shame sometimes? That you've drifted away from your original love for the product?
Patrick Leering: Yes, at some point in your business you also reach a stage where you yourself think: do I still like what I am doing now? Is that why I started DecoLegno?
There has certainly been that phase, looking back five or six years. That the recruitment of staff and all the things that surround entrepreneurship, that you then think: young young, that also exceeds my ability.
Together with my associate Guido, we then really started a trajectory. In retrospect, a good trajectory. By identifying a number of pillars in our business and putting managers on them.
We talk about a marketing manager, we talk about supply chain management - everything about logistics and inventory management - we talk about inside sales and a sales manager.
Jerry Helmers: What is inside sales with you guys?
Patrick Leering: Inside sales with us are four to five people who are busy engaging with our customers online. So they call customers, follow up on requests and try to get customers to the showroom for the experience.
And in addition, we have customer support, where order processing takes place.
[16:52] What should a good showroom look like?
Jerry Helmers: What should a good showroom meet? All the kitchen specialty stores listening, thinking: how do I set up my own showroom properly?
Patrick Leering: It starts with hospitality. How do you welcome a customer? Do they feel welcome? Do you pour a good cup of coffee? Do you offer them a second cup? Is your business tidy? Is it orderly? Are they addressed appropriately by your staff?
Jerry Helmers: And do we do that well in the Netherlands? When you walk into a kitchen store?
Patrick Leering: Especially at the smaller kitchen stores, they do that very well.
Jerry Helmers: By that you're suggesting that at the larger specialty stores that's not as good?
Patrick Leering: There is sometimes a different dynamic there.
Jerry Helmers: So the big kitchen stores are now listening with pricked ears.
Patrick Leering: What a lot of customers don't want is an aggressive approach to sales.
And this is often different in smaller kitchen stores - the mom-and-pop stores - than in large stores that are very much hung up on targets. There, things like hospitality are less emphasized.
A good cup of coffee already makes you feel completely different when you sit at the table than when you get a cup of coffee from a vending machine with a plastic spoon in it.
Jerry Helmers: Yes, I recognize that. I bought a car and got coffee in a plastic cup. That just doesn't feel right.
Patrick Leering: Exactly. And that's all part of the experience. And that can also go a long way in deciding whether that customer is ultimately going to buy that kitchen from you.
[19:05] Price pressure and customization
Jerry Helmers: Many kitchen specialty stores struggle with price pressure. How can customization help add value instead of competing on price?
Patrick Leering: It has to do with the segment you're in. Someone who wants a custom kitchen is in a different emotion than someone who goes to a big chain.
That customer often already has more in mind what he wants. He wants this in his kitchen. Maybe he has already seen DecoLegno somewhere.
Jerry Helmers: But in the end, is competing on price legitimate? In another episode, Don Wijnschenk said: lowering prices is the beginning of your downfall.
Patrick Leering: I totally agree with that. Totally.
You have different target groups. One target group may spend ten or twelve thousand euros. That segment is price-driven buying.
But if you are in a segment where people spend twenty, twenty-five, thirty thousand euros or more, then price plays a different role. There, people are also more likely to choose more expensive equipment and materials.
Jerry Helmers: So what is the secret to a good customization choice?
Patrick Leering: That you get a kitchen that totally suits you. Of which you say: this is my kitchen. Designed together with the advisor. The color is right, the cabinets have been adjusted, the top is not seventy but for example seventy-six centimeters deep.
That is customization. That it fits exactly.
[21:26] Do consumers actually know what they want?
Jerry Helmers: But do consumers actually always know what they want?
Patrick Leering: Not always.
Consumers today, of course, already orient themselves much more. Even when you go to the family doctor, the patient often already has their own diagnosis.
And when you come into our home, people often know: I want dark green, or blue, or something with brown and gray.
They orient themselves through all kinds of platforms, and Pinterest is especially important.
So consumers are coming in more and more prepared.
Jerry Helmers: That also means that kitchen stores need to do a better job of preparing for the sales call.
Patrick Leering: Definitely. But you don't want to mislead the customer either. You want to help him make the right choice that makes him happy.
[22:47] Maarten's Minute
Jerry Helmers: We don't have an official commercial break in this podcast. But we do have a break. Because we're going to listen to our sidekick Maarten Zegstroo's pre-recorded column.
And usually Maarten ends with a question for the guest. So Patrick, listen extra carefully.
[23:05] Response to Maarten's Minute
Jerry Helmers: Well of course I say, Martin, thank you for this spoken column. I hope you'll be back live next time, because you always want to get involved in the conversations, too. But today you're not here for a while. Nice column Maarten, thank you. Patrick, you heard his question. Maarten was talking about digital customization, so a combination of feel and technology that allows the consumer to arrive at the right choice. But the question is: Is it a conscious choice or does it quickly step over that anyway?
Patrick Leering: It's really a conscious decision.
Jerry Helmers: Yes? Now you have to be the psychologist for a moment. How does that work?
Patrick Leering: Yes look, imagine yourself: you buy a nice apartment and you have to have a kitchen in it.
Jerry Helmers: Yes, I'm listening extra carefully now.
Patrick Leering: Yes that's why. And you have to look at that kitchen for ten, fifteen years. The kitchen has become a part of a home, an experience. Residential kitchens, you name it. The kitchen is part of the interior. So people very consciously choose certain color schemes, certain decors. Do I choose wood or do I choose a metallic? We also have customers who choose a fabric look because that goes very well with the rest of the painting in their home. So people definitely choose very consciously.
Jerry Helmers: But at the same time, I think it has also become complicated. Because that living kitchen is open, open, open. It has to match the sofa, match the corner where your television is, match the paint job, match a cabinet that's there. How is the consumer supposed to solve all that?
Patrick Leering: Well, look, we have a lot of customers who come to us who already take parts of their interior with them. That could be a floor, that could be paint, that could be fabric. And then they look for a color that fits the kitchen. And we lay our panels next to that.
Jerry Helmers: But which is stronger: visualization or a visit in the showroom?
Patrick Leering: It's a combination of both. It goes hand in hand. The nice thing is: if you've been with us and you have an architect who has drawn something for you, you can already walk through your living room through VR glasses, for example. Where you already get a feeling of: yes, this is right, this will be my living room. So people really consciously choose a certain color and texture.
Jerry Helmers: Okay. But how far along is DecoLegno itself in that technological development?
Patrick Leering: That is something for us in the future. These are developments in the market that are going well and that you see happening around you. So also for DecoLegno that is an important thing to flesh out for the near future.
But in the end, it is still always about the real experience. Feeling, seeing and experiencing colors and textures. That's what convinces people. That's why they come to us.
There are also people who come to us who have actually already chosen through an architect and determined the color. But they still want that final push. And they come along and say: yes, wow, this is good.
So the real experience and feeling you always get anyway when you see and feel the material.
[28:36] Trends in materials and colors
Jerry Helmers: Then we move to trends. We're now in 2025. What should kitchen specialty stores look for when decorating their showroom?
Patrick Leering: It's also a question of where you sit in the Netherlands.
Jerry Helmers: Does that differ between Leeuwarden and Tilburg?
Patrick Leering: Whether you're in the Randstad or in the eastern part of the country. There the choices in colors and decors are different anyway.
Jerry Helmers: What's the difference?
Patrick Leering: In the Randstad, we are more on trends. There, for example, we have moved away from black. That's becoming black with some gray in it. Or we're going back to honey oak. You see that coming back a lot now too.
Metallics in kitchens are also seen a lot.
You also have some more conservative kitchen stores in the Netherlands that don't follow trends as much. Those stay more on the rustic. The peasant feeling.
Jerry Helmers: There's a market for that, too.
Patrick Leering: Definitely.
Jerry Helmers: Who actually determines these trends?
Patrick Leering: The media right?
Jerry Helmers: Well, you name it.
Patrick Leering: The housing programs on television help with that, of course. But also international trade fairs. Milan, for example.
Jerry Helmers: How is it that Italy is so leading?
Patrick Leering: It's a culture. People look very much to Italy when it comes to furniture design. There are huge furniture industries there. Big brands come from there.
Jerry Helmers: What will be the trend toward 2026?
Patrick Leering: What we see happening now: the rusticity is getting completely out. We've been seeing that trend for one and a half to two years.
Quiet quartered drawings in wood, combined with metallics and fabric textures.
Walnut is very much in demand.
And we think in two years we'll be heading toward cherries.
Jerry Helmers: Cherry?
Patrick Leering: Yes.
Jerry Helmers: What are you basing that on?
Patrick Leering: You see that at trade shows. And at our supplier Cleaf. They develop new designs where that color comes back.
Jerry Helmers: So do you have any influence on that collection?
Patrick Leering: Absolutely. Twice a year we go to Cleaf with a collection team from the Netherlands. Then we show: this sells well, but we still miss this and this.
We often hear that from architects. They really see what is happening in the world of design.
[34:28] The LinkedIn coffee moment
Jerry Helmers: Then a final statement. A personal LinkedIn post is more effective than an ad. Agree or disagree?
Patrick Leering: Pooh...
Jerry Helmers: I thought you had a direct answer to this.
Patrick Leering: Yeah, look ... not everybody follows you on LinkedIn.
Jerry Helmers: But it also applies to you. A personal LinkedIn post is more effective than an ad.
Patrick Leering: Definitely. Agreed.
Jerry Helmers: Because what do you do every Friday morning?
Patrick Leering: You can tell.
Jerry Helmers: Every Friday morning you post on LinkedIn with a cup of coffee. Always a different cup of coffee. And a little story to go with it. And that always gets a lot of responses.
Patrick Leering: Yes, that's right. It's really just a business happiness moment.
I always have a coffee cup with me with DecoLegno on it. And whatever makes me happy, I take a picture of it with that cup next to it. And I write a little story with it.
Jerry Helmers: You never put people on it.
Patrick Leering: No. Always the headline with the story.
Jerry Helmers: And people like that.
Patrick Leering: Yes. Sometimes I even get messages, “It's 11 o'clock and you haven't posted anything yet.”
Jerry Helmers: They're worried.
Patrick Leering: Yes.
Jerry Helmers: What was the funniest post ever?
Patrick Leering: When my two sons came into the company. Then I took a picture while they were signing their contracts. And that really garnered a huge response.
And the nice thing is: people remember that too. When you talk to them later they say: hey, your son is also in the business.
That is the effect of social media.
[39:03] Patrick's two-minute closing speech
Jerry Helmers: We've come to the end of the podcast. Patrick, you get two minutes of speaking time. I'm not taking any more questions.
Patrick Leering: Definitely.
The basis of success is a good product with a manufacturer who innovates and an entrepreneur who believes in it.
From the start of DecoLegno, doing things differently from others has been the foundation. The collection is distinctive, the way of presentation, the way of customer approach and the focus.
Due to the innovative nature of DecoLegno, we always manage to stay well connected to the needs of the client.
This need is not just about the collection or the product. Although this remains the basis, more and more new aspects are playing a role.
Personnel have become the gold of our organization.
In addition to primary benefits, we also provide good fringe benefits. We work hard on employer branding and manage to attract more and more gems from the market.
A good example is the onboarding process at DecoLegno of new colleagues. But also the DecoLegno Academy.
New and existing colleagues feel heard and known.
Through our HR, we ensure that there is always a safe haven if there are issues that cannot be discussed with a supervisor.
We are not afraid to invest in people.
That's what DecoLegno makes.
Everything we have achieved and what we do is partly because of the enthusiasm, commitment and enthusiasm of Team DecoLegno.
[42:31] Closing the episode
Jerry Helmers: Well Patrick, I don't know, but if there should be a world record of who's closest to two minutes ... I think you've got it.
Patrick Leering: I saw those last seconds.
Jerry Helmers: I saw your eyes going back and forth, too.
Patrick Leering: I thought: am I going to mention them?
Jerry Helmers: I have one more question. What is the DecoLegno Academy?
Patrick Leering: We collected all the issues internally and put them into an online system. There, people can train themselves on our products.
Jerry Helmers: Kind of like internal webinars.
Patrick Leering: Yes, you can see it that way.
Jerry Helmers: Patrick, thank you so much for coming to the studio.
Patrick Leering: Thank you very much.
Jerry Helmers: Listeners, you've been listening to KeukenCast, the podcast for trade professionals with ambition in the kitchen industry. My name is Jerry Helmers and I was your host and presenter.
Until the next episode of KitchenCast.
