Transcript
[00:07] Introduction to the podcast
Jerry Helmers: This is Kitchencast, the podcast for trade professionals with ambition in the kitchen industry. In each episode, an expert sits down to discuss the most important trends, themes and developments. And we don't shy away from discussion either. At the kitchen table, on the kitchen table, under the kitchen table, we do it all. My name is Jerry Helmers, I am your host and presenter. I bid you a warm welcome. And yes, dear listeners, who are sitting at my table in this episode of Kitchencast? I would almost say none other than Martin Jansen of MiMa Agency. And to my right sits Maarten Zegstroo, kitchen guru. May I describe it that way, Maarten?
Maarten Zegstroo: Whatever you want.
[00:54] Martin Jansen introduces himself
Jerry Helmers: What I want. I'm going to ask you in a moment, Martin, if you'd like to introduce yourself a little bit further as well. But first of all Martin Jansen. For all those people who have been living under a rock for the last 20 years and don't know who you are: tell me. Who are you? Where did you come from? And what brought you into this podcast?
Martin Jansen: Good morning. I am Martin Jansen, first of all grandfather of a wonderful little child. That's the most important thing. And we have a wonderful beautiful company called MiMa Agency, Beautiful in Customization. Where the main thing is actually that we are agents of Ballerina Keukens in the Netherlands. And in addition, with our colleagues, we lay down a complete concept for designing, completing and guiding kitchen retailers, i.e. kitchen specialty stores.
[01:44] What do beautiful and customized mean?
Jerry Helmers: Yes, what is beautiful, what is customization? Give some definitions of that. What is beautiful is a matter of taste, of course.
Martin Jansen: But that's where we try to help our retailers. Yes, do you have taste? My wife doesn't think so.
Jerry Helmers: Then we'll have to take a moment anyway....
Martin Jansen: I know what's beautiful, but I can't make it up. So our three interior designers take care of that, they make beautiful plans. Because I too am convinced, not only because my wife says so, that I have no taste. But that ultimately ladies are also better at dealing with beautiful materials and things.
Jerry Helmers: Oh, interesting.
Martin Jansen: And then our ladies make proposals. We now have a wonderful project in Barneveld that we get to fill in. That's what we're doing right now. Where we've really tackled things from scratch. And who have opted for the full range. So both Ballerina Kitchens and the complete interior. As a design by MiMa Beautiful in Customization. I'm really very proud of that.
[02:33] More women in the industry
Jerry Helmers: You said in the pre-talk on this podcast recording, I would like to see more ladies working in the industry. But this maybe already underscores what you just said. Because ultimately women have more taste or have more visibility for it?
Martin Jansen: I think enough research has shown that ultimately within most domestic families, traditional domestic families, the lady determines the choice.
Jerry Helmers: Yes, who has the pants on.
[02:55] What exactly is customization?
Jerry Helmers: And what exactly is customization?
Martin Jansen: Customization is because we can also customize various materials exactly. Both with Ballerina and with the interior range we have. And ultimately our ladies also create a complete custom concept for our kitchen retailers. We not only supply stuff, but we also help them develop the kitchens.
Jerry Helmers: Yes, exactly.
Martin Jansen: And the routing, as we have now done for that wonderful project in Barneveld.
[03:23] Why Martin is in the podcast
Jerry Helmers: Nice. What brought you to this podcast, aside from the fact that we invited you? Why did you see into it: yes?
Martin Jansen: Well, Volkert asked me for that. And Volkert van der Werf is a project manager. And you can't refuse him. Well, I hesitated. What I think is important in everything I do is that there has to be a click between people.
Jerry Helmers: Okay.
Martin Jansen: And I think that ... I don't know what Volkert thinks about it....
Jerry Helmers: But I do think there is a click.
Martin Jansen: Well, Volkert will no doubt be listening to this podcast as well. Cheering at the back. But I think it's... yes, this is completely new to me of course. I can dick tremendously well, people around me say. But this is very different. So I have to get used to it a little bit.
Jerry Helmers: Okay, but we're glad you're here. Again, welcome.
[04:04] Maarten Zegstroo introduces himself
Jerry Helmers: We are now looking at, I just said it, kitchen trade guru. The ultimate expert, Maarten Zegstroo. Who are you and why are you the Johan Derksen as a sidekick in this podcast?
Maarten Zegstroo: Yes, that's because of my gray locks by now.
Jerry Helmers: By your gray locks indeed, yes.
Maarten Zegstroo: So a little too much honor, Jerry, but thanks for that. Yeah, I've been in the kitchen industry for about fifteen years now as a trade editor. And that's basically my role within this industry. An industry that I've been away from for one year. And didn't want to go back very soon, because I just missed it. It's actually a really fun industry.
Jerry Helmers: Why is it so much fun, the kitchen profession?
Maarten Zegstroo: Well, it's smaller scale than you think. Us knows us.
Jerry Helmers: Us knows us.
Maarten Zegstroo: People also do grant each other a lot. It is an industry that is always moving. Not always very fast, but there are always changes. And I think especially the people who work in it are people who love the profession. And that makes the profession beautiful.
[05:15] The first propositions
Jerry Helmers: I'm very curious about that if Martin would respond to that later. I feel like Martin might have a slightly different perspective on that anyway, we're going to come back to that later. We'll just hear you breaking in later when you want to break in, but you have your regular menu somewhere in the middle of this podcast anyway, your spoken column, Martin's menu. Of course, we also don't know what all you're going to say and we're going to respond to that. I look again at my other interlocutor here at the table. Martin, I'm going to present you with some statements that you can respond to with either agree or disagree. Are you ready for that?
Martin Jansen: I think so, yes.
Jerry Helmers: Martin, proposition one: customer is king no longer applies in the kitchen industry. Agree or disagree?
Martin Jansen: Disagree.
Jerry Helmers: Do I have another proposition for you. A beautiful kitchen sells itself.
Martin Jansen: Agreed.
Jerry Helmers: You agree with that. And another statement. Consumers don't really know what customization really means at all.
Martin Jansen: Agreed.
Jerry Helmers: Agree, I saw some doubt in some of the statements, right? Or do you want to come back to something already?
Martin Jansen: Yes, you can't say for the group, as you describe it, obviously one hundred percent agree or disagree.
Jerry Helmers: Yes, that's the tricky thing, such a dilemma.
Other speaker: You have to make a choice.
[06:46] The changing consumer
Martin Jansen: If we discussed the issues together in our brief phone conversation, then on that first one, of course, I should say once.
Jerry Helmers: Yes, but you said disagree.
Martin Jansen: Yes, because the majority of our customers, our clients, the kitchen retailers, are all hard-working self-employed people who really do go for it. But you see, I think the main thing is that the market is changing tremendously and the consumer is changing.
Jerry Helmers: Where does the consumer change?
Martin Jansen: Who thinks mainly in the digital field they already get so much good information, so that is automatically the truth.
Jerry Helmers: So do you mean, for example, that consumers walk into the kitchen store with a picture that they generated themselves on AI, artificial intelligence for example, and then say, best kitchen showroom salesman, this is what I want?
Martin Jansen: That, of course, is massively marketed as something a consumer would want. Our director-owner - or not ours, but the one we work with from Ballerina - that man is 83 years old. He likes to talk about sales, of course, but he would much rather talk about the advertising factor. So how much service do you have with a kitchen? He considers that much more important, much more than sales. Because a German naturally wants to sell a lot, but also wants to make sure that he has to do as little subsequent delivery as possible. And that's where Ballerina is of course - own parish - but we've been named best performing manufacturer six times. And he works that out with Mrs. Brinkmeijer and the rest. That work comes from somewhere. Yes, they do their best. And that German punctuality helps then anyway. Only you see now in this day and age, with the current materials that are out there - which of course increasingly match the interior - that they are many times more vulnerable than the less beautiful materials we used to sell.
[08:30] What the Netherlands can learn from Germany
Jerry Helmers: So do I understand that we here in the Netherlands can learn something from how they do it in Germany?
Martin Jansen: No. You did compliment how it's done in Germany, about punctuality. Yes, we always say: the Italians make it up and then the Germans try to make it up. And somehow, whether time is good or getting bad, that little chickadee is always used as a kind of first outlet anyway. They still think it's important: So how is the Netherlands doing? I once used to work for another kitchen supplier and even then he was surprised why so many kitchens went to the Netherlands, to such a small country. He said to me in a funny way: do we bring them across the border? Do we throw them in the sea on the other side or something? Because, of course, the Netherlands is eighty times smaller than Germany. And when you see how much goes here ... you also see that when you drive through Germany or Belgium. They spend much more time and money there, of course. And not only on the outside of the house, but also the interior. We think that's really important.
Jerry Helmers: Yes, fortunately.
[09:28] Grumpy faces in the showroom
Jerry Helmers: And yet it is indeed surprising. You said in the preliminary interview: I see too many grumpy people in the showroom, but still a lot is sold here in the Netherlands. I'll look at Maarten right away. What is your experience when you look at how things are going in showrooms in the Netherlands? I see too many grumpy people. Well, agree or disagree? Excerpt from Martin in the preliminary interview I had with him.
Maarten Zegstroo: You have to think about that for a moment. Yes, I think I would agree with that, yes.
Jerry Helmers: Explain.
Maarten Zegstroo: I think the grumbling level is pretty high. Does always arise somewhere, just at some point the glass has to become half full again. And in general, it may sound too strict, but there are some retailers where the glass always remains half empty.
[10:23] Customers, frustrations and flexibility
Jerry Helmers: So what do you mean by that? Are consumers and customers too troublesome? Martin, break in if you want to respond to this.
Maarten Zegstroo: I think it's very easy, and I think it's also a part of society today, that we all know how to observe and we don't understand that on the front end there can always be misjudgments or mistakes.
Jerry Helmers: But make it more concrete. We have kitchen specialty stores, new grumpy faces there. What's going on there in kitchen specialty store X?
Martin Jansen: I think it's mainly with the kitchen specialty stores ... you have to break in.
Jerry Helmers: Yes, yes, very much so.
Martin Jansen: If anyone can grumble, it's me for example, if that could be. Only, I then leave it ... we compare with the teacher group and then again I will kick someone on his toe of course. The customers, and then I see the students, but as customers, of course they have all changed. And with the students, mainly the parents, they have all become more articulate. And then some people think they can put aside all their decency and just say what they want and go. But in fact you chose to go into a kitchen store or become a teacher. Then you shouldn't lie around all day whining, or you should draw your plan and do something else. You will have to deal with the situation as it is.
Jerry Helmers: Are you saying then that there is not enough flexibility within that entrepreneurship of such a kitchen specialty store?
Martin Jansen: I think of course a kitchen specialist, compared to a teacher, is an entrepreneur. And he has all kinds of things on his neck. He gets the problems from the supplier, because they are delivered to him. Who gets the problems from his mechanic, from the consumer, you name everything that exists. And with the craziness... let's forget corona for a moment, but just very quickly add to it what happened then....
Jerry Helmers: Yes, you mean it hasn't been actionable?
Martin Jansen: For example. But also because manufacturers ... we were at 21, 22 weeks delivery time, for example, where we normally have four to five weeks delivery time. Or steam ovens or ovens that weren't there a year later. And then your consumer is not bothered, but if they still don't have anything a year later, then of course as a retailer you have to go with it.
[12:23] Retailer and supplier as a team
Jerry Helmers: Yes, the consumer has a point in the end, doesn't he, Martin? If he has to wait that long for his kitchen.
Maarten Zegstroo: Absolutely a point. And it is. And customers have become more demanding. But so has the consistency and cooperation between a supplier and a kitchen retailer.
Jerry Helmers: Sensationally, me as half an outsider, as a kitchen guru....
Maarten Zegstroo: Ho, ho, ho, I told you, you're the Johan Derksen of this podcast.
Jerry Helmers: So I'm allowed to grumble right? No, but you're not half an outsider, you're a whole insider.
Maarten Zegstroo: What I have noticed over the last decades, decade, is that from my perception, it has become so that the retailer has become more of a customer, really a real customer of the supplier, and no longer walking the path together. And that rigor among themselves has increased in my perception.
Jerry Helmers: And rigor, what do you mean by...
Maarten Zegstroo: If something goes wrong, you didn't do it wrong together, but then: the other person got it wrong.
Jerry Helmers: Do you recognize that, Martin? Is that very tight of: we shift the responsibility to somebody else in the chain?
Martin Jansen: That's of course ... I can imagine that, that pressure that only increases. Then you can't have another drop. Then you like to put the blame on the other person.
Maarten Zegstroo: There was more of a team spirit between supplier and kitchen retail. And now you see more and more, also because of new blood in the industry, that there is a small change. That it becomes more customer and supplier, so to speak.
Martin Jansen: But are you getting to your point?
Maarten Zegstroo: No, tell.
Martin Jansen: I only talk of my own shorts of course. And I'm also convinced that, if I may speak for myself a little bit, that's why we have good results. Because the dealer also knows that if there is shit or misery, or that service is still not solved, then he also calls one of us. So that we can connect with the consumer to eventually pick it up. That's not to say that plenty goes wrong at Ballerina, either. But they know: we just all have to have the attitude that it's not about the problem, but about the solution. And if a consumer like that knows that the supplier is coming forward, then no one is burying their head in the sand and then they also have the feeling that it will be taken up seriously better.
[14:50] First tip for the kitchen specialist
Jerry Helmers: Can you translate that, or you together maybe, into two or three tips for the kitchen specialty store? Because we're talking about how do you sell, how do you provide service, how do you fill in your own entrepreneurship, how can you guarantee your livelihood for your own kitchen specialty store. That's what we're talking about in the thread. Can you come up with two or three tips together that the kitchen specialty store can do something with? So those people listening to the podcast, they click away at some point, because we're done and then they have to get started. I'll give Maarten the first one. Give us a very concrete tip.
Maarten Zegstroo: Yes, that's a good one. And I just want to touch on that briefly on what Martin also points out. It says something when retailers tell me that, for example, Quooker has its after-sales very well taken care of. Yes, that's in your USP and that's actually kind of what I mean by it. I would imagine that as a retailer you're not always sitting around choosing other brands. So the turnover of that is not very high, I can taste. But I can imagine that you could possibly have a need for that at the time when after-sales are better with someone else.
Jerry Helmers: So what is the tip you would like to give with this?
Maarten Zegstroo: Keep your ears and eyes open and see where one supplier's aftersales are a little better together than another. And then maybe choose that brand.
Jerry Helmers: So be critical of your supplier.
Maarten Zegstroo: Yes, right. To that concern.
[16:24] Service and communication as key factors
Martin Jansen: Yes, right. To get a message, just like for the consumer, is: look a little bit beyond the price. The consumer of course goes to a retailer and he assumes that whatever he's sold, that of course there's always a piece of service to that. But of course that's not the case for every kitchen retailer.....
Jerry Helmers: Explain, then, what is service?
Martin Jansen: You report the moment that customer is ready. Then a piece of communication, customer contact. We are of course the agent for Ballerina Netherlands and in addition we have an agency or a cooperation with several manufacturers from Europe for interiors. If you look at the general mentality within the interior industry or within the kitchen industry: we have taught kitchens that, as I like to say, we do what we say. And that sounds very simple, but you almost can't....
Jerry Helmers: But then is that also the tip you want to give to the kitchen specialty retailer? In communication, in selling to the market, to consumers: just do what you say for once.
Martin Jansen: Well it seems that of course all those kitchen specialty stores don't do that. But fortunately there are many that do. But in their busyness I can imagine that they forget something. Of course, I also notice this regularly at our company. If we have an internal agreement with each other that if someone asks something of the other ... If a customer asks me: can one of you approach me, contact me, who wants to go through a cage with a plan or I want a plan for our store ... and I put it to the girls the next day, then we have agreed with each other that within a day or at the latest the next day that customer will be called. Even if the appointment is not scheduled for twelve days, that you haven't called in a week.
Jerry Helmers: Communication is the key word and the success factor?
Martin Jansen: Well, I think ... look, such a consumer naturally assumes, and such a retailer as well, when you engage with someone, that communication always works out.
Jerry Helmers: Yes, yes.
Martin Jansen: That is not so.
[18:08] The image problem of the kitchen industry
Jerry Helmers: Crazy, right? I almost look at you. Yet the image of the kitchen industry among consumers is not really great. Very brief story of my own: several years ago my mother was forced to move from one apartment building to another apartment building. The old apartment building was going down, so then it's hard to keep living there. Well, new apartment. I went with my mother to a kitchen store, because of course a kitchen had to be picked out. And I had two, three times in those different kitchen stores that we were tricked. Whether that was in that we didn't feel real attention, or that we weren't really listened to. But we did have the feeling in all those stores of: a kitchen had to be sold quickly. Is this recognizable or is my story so unique that it is irrelevant before everyone feels personally addressed?
Martin Jansen: For my clients also no names here. I don't mention any... I almost wanted to ask what business was that? It's kind of a big deal. And true? It's very bad whether it's true or not, but a consumer then enters with a kind of caution. Before he's even touched the door, he feels like he's being conned, to put it bluntly. And we've all been there, me included. Yes, it might be too. So what can we do about that? Make that customer feel at home.
Jerry Helmers: And how do you do that concretely? I also look at Maarten. You are kitchen guru.
[19:32] Transparency and price structure
Maarten Zegstroo: I think the challenge lies mainly, and you do see a change coming, in transparency in terms of pricing. I think if I look at my... I've been in this industry for fifteen years now. So when I started I had all my friends who were buying houses and having kids and things like that. And then you also get into issues that you just brought up. Similar stories.
Jerry Helmers: Similar stories.
Maarten Zegstroo: And those are mainly in that they have the idea that they are being fooled. And some of the examples I heard, afterwards the conclusion was not that they were fooled, but that they felt they were fooled. And that's where the problem lies. And that's also what Martin is saying: every negative sentence you say here doesn't apply to everyone. But suppose...
Jerry Helmers: You're the manager of one of those kitchen specialty stores. So how would you communicate that to your own employees? How do you motivate them so that those consumers don't get that feeling?
Maarten Zegstroo: I once wrote an article about the success of iPhones. Whether you get them in Den Helder or in Maastricht, they are just as expensive everywhere. I agree with that, that if you get a Ballerina kitchen in Den Helder and it's the same material and the same serial number, in my view it should be just as expensive in Den Helder as it is in Maastricht. And that's where I think the challenge lies for the industry, because I think we do already move in that direction. Only consumers don't think so and that also has to do with the past. And how do we change that, that's a good question.
Jerry Helmers: Yes, but you know that. I do want an answer to that from you.
Maarten Zegstroo: Yes, by being persistent, by providing transparency.
Jerry Helmers: Transparency I really think is a killer too. I really think that's a cliché. What is transparency? This is a bit of management language.
Maarten Zegstroo: Yes, that's right.
Jerry Helmers: I really want to get into something concrete. Because all those people in the Netherlands who work in those kitchen specialty stores, they're listening to this podcast and they're now thinking, okay, we have another management guru talking about transparency. Now make it concrete.
Maarten Zegstroo: So to make it concrete: I think it's good if you indicate what an oven costs, what a faucet costs, what the countertop you chose costs. I think that's very important.
Jerry Helmers: Clear cost report.
Maarten Zegstroo: Clear cost picture. And not just the total price. Because that still occurs.
[22:14] Price structure and the role of suppliers
Jerry Helmers: Good. Can you get into that, Martin, before we get to Maarten in his menu in a moment?
Martin Jansen: Yes, of course that's easier for me as a woodsman to say than starting in the appliance world.
Jerry Helmers: What do you mean by that?
Martin Jansen: A wood man then we call the people who supply the cabinets. So you have within kitchens the disciplines of natural wood, appliances and countertops.
Jerry Helmers: Yes, okay. Those are the suppliers.
Martin Jansen: Yes, but of that price structure with that....
Jerry Helmers: That price structure, explain that.
Martin Jansen: Yes, okay. The dealers are of course eighty percent my age and they are not so digital, if I may say so gently. So have of course initially had to deal with an equipment world that has shown itself on a different channel, where prices were of course more than transparent on a one-to-one basis. Where such a dealer could not align his revenue model. Whatever you think of such a revenue model, because if a consumer still buys from you, you will have quite a good revenue model, I think. Because then they'll go with it. So, of course, an extreme amount of things have changed recently. And if their revenue model is already there, of course you can't just turn things around because there are certain equal devices... it's mainly about devices of course. And with that I don't want to blame the device world, but there really has been a very big shift in that. And I think you have to be honest about use of materials tailored to what's going on in your home. We obviously as a kitchen world ... was I with you ... have obviously all had materials that we've had several sleepless nights with. I'll just mention a word foil, for example. Or I'll just mention a word steam ovens or Bora or Quookers. They're all great appliances, but they still can't go together with particleboard. There is no consultation between suppliers there either, both in terms of wood and appliances. Fortunately, at the last meeting of Keukenbouw we got appliance guys and wood guys together, who then try to find some cooperation with each other to eventually tackle problems in advance and not find out afterwards that that steam oven next to my particle board door ... oh, that's not really possible.
Jerry Helmers: So a piece of chain integration.
Martin Jansen: Yes, if that sounds so nice then.
Jerry Helmers: Yes, that may be another management term.
Martin Jansen: Yes, I thought so.
Jerry Helmers: Chain integration indeed. But at least more collaboration, flat out.
Martin Jansen: To ultimately maybe give that consumer that better feeling. Well, I know, I'm not calling all of them professional terms. When I speak ... look, we all just got over the shock of high gloss and now we all started selling matte en masse. Preferably black, too. I don't know what idiot came up with that. And then they made it up: finger-proof-free. Well, you know, a bit like...
Jerry Helmers: And why do you say that with this?
Martin Jansen: I wasn't ready...
Jerry Helmers: Yeah, so kind of...
Martin Jansen: As our government does every day. Telling things that make absolutely no sense at all. Because there is nothing finger-proof-free. And if a consumer then has that and they then experience that after six months, of course they only come back to one address.
Jerry Helmers: Yes, exactly.
Martin Jansen: And then you have, that's just another piece of feeding that into why in that whole kitchen market by the way then should be bad.
Jerry Helmers: Yes, so maybe be careful about everything you promise in the conversations.
Martin Jansen: I also understand that that is difficult. Because if you had to tell them everything they have to take into account... I always say: if you sit at the table with a consumer for three hours, because that's how long the minimum conversation lasts, and then you try to become friends, because that's the basis, and if you're not going to become a friend, please send them home, because you're not selling anything or you're selling forced. Then when you do spend three hours with such a consumer, at least ask what the home situation is like. Do they have kids, do they have big dogs? And then if people want black mat and they think it's finger-proof-free, you have to help them out of that dream. But I also understand that that is difficult to tell, because suppose they leave you and they go to the neighbor and that neighbor says to that consumer: hey, with me it's all fine, then of course you have lost that consumer.
Jerry Helmers: You're a consultant or not, right?
Martin Jansen: Yes, but you also have to make money.
Jerry Helmers: Yes, exactly. That may be where the big split is.
[25:57] Maarten's menu - Attract and retain young talent
Jerry Helmers: Maybe, Martin, in a moment we'll go into a split as well, because it's time for Maarten's little menu, the spoken column. Maarten, are you ready? Because we're very curious what you're going to tell us, what you want to impart or inspire the listener on. We're going to hear it. We're going to go to Maarten's menu.
Maarten Zegstroo: We really have a wonderful industry. Beautiful products, craftsmanship, technology and commerce. Actually everything is in it. And yet, still we see it happen quite often. Young people enthusiastically step inside, but are just as quickly gone again. They opt for something else after all. Something that seems hipper, which is faster or where you can grow faster. Especially in kitchen retail it is really starting to show. The market is aging. A lot of knowledge is in that old guard and that's super valuable. But who will come after them later? We need young, well-educated people. But then we as a sector must also ensure that those people want to start here and stay here. That means seriously investing in guidance, offering perspective and also showing that in this industry you can be proud of what you do. So the question is: how do we make that first step attractive? And how do we make sure they're not gone after a year? And then I also take a look at Martin Jansen. Martin, I'm sure you have ideas about this as well. What can we as an industry do to attract, but also retain young talent?
Jerry Helmers: Well Martin, thank you Martin for this spoken column. Martin, you were asked a question. What can we as an industry do about it? Because, of course, this column is also about recruiting and retaining good staff. Your first reaction, what goes through your mind?
Martin Jansen: Yes, fat one. Really fantastic.
Jerry Helmers: Anyway, there was also a question asked by Maarten.
[27:44] Kitchen education and training
Martin Jansen: Yes, we have been trying to do that a little bit for the last two or three years. Look, for people who don't see me, of course I'm from the old guard and I was trained with a kitchen tab and a drawing pad to draw a kitchen. Yes, to learn technical jargon like corner fit and style measure and baseboard. And of course there is no one there besides that gentleman from Waalwijk who still provides kitchen training or anyone who knows what the trade entails and how to plan, how to do it. So Ballerina initially made a digital kitchen training with a big German company. Is expensive, grafted on Ballerina, on the Ballerina product. Those are licenses that we buy and we can resell to our dealer at the time they have young, fresh staff.
Jerry Helmers: Yes, what is that digital kitchen training then? You need to make a little more concrete what that digital kitchen training is then.
Martin Jansen: That digital kitchen training is actually ... there's nothing backwards about it. It's just slowly introduced: what is a baseboard and what is a corner fitting? Because at the moment... we ourselves with the agency provide training in Germany for our dealers, for experienced dealers or inexperienced dealers, to eventually get the product features in their heads. We are not going to tell there how to sell.
Jerry Helmers: Well, that's the question, of course.
Martin Jansen: They all know that.
Jerry Helmers: Or sit me down ...
Martin Jansen: Sitting knowing ... yes, I think I'm moving more towards advising, as you like, rather than selling. Because selling is something a lot of people can do, yes. If you already pronounce a sentence longer than twenty words then you can sell, they think.
Jerry Helmers: Because you can dick around.
Martin Jansen: But dicks can be anyone, of course. And we would prefer to have those people somewhere else. But it is more the product training, to take into account what is possible, but also what is not possible. And what information you should or should not spread to that consumer. So that that consumer... Mr. Ellesiek, there he is again, always told it so beautifully: a consumer says that he bought a kitchen on a birthday somewhere. Yes, then of course twelve people are going to stand up and tell you all these bad experiences of their kitchens. So that consumer doesn't sleep for the next nine weeks for now, which is the average time it takes for the kitchen to arrive then. And if you want to put it even more exaggeratedly, after nine weeks that kitchen comes, then he has to pay for everything and then the mechanic comes in with a cigarette in his mouth and with a jigsaw who is going to cut that cabinet all the way into misery first or something. Yes, that's a little bit defective, just very much exaggerated. Because generally it works perfectly with our customers. Only we work with kitchen specialists, with moms and dads. So the one who answers the phone there is also the one who sells, is also the one who fronts it. Just when I look at eighty percent of the dealers there ... that much is ... I think, want to beat that to look at seventy, eighty percent. I looked at our area in the south....
Jerry Helmers: My colleague Kees actually does that....
[30:20] How do you keep people in the industry?
Jerry Helmers: Martin, are you getting an answer to the question you asked?
Maarten Zegstroo: I want to go after it, Martin, it's a beautiful road after it.
Jerry Helmers: Look, because we're looking for...
Maarten Zegstroo: At this point I don't have an answer to your question.
Jerry Helmers: No, make it a little more concrete. I have to make you a little bit shorter. We want to retain personnel in the industry, in the market.
Martin Jansen: Then we should all make sure that we have new staff...
Jerry Helmers: Yes, but how?
Martin Jansen: We would like to do that, for example. With us, we succeeded with six, seven concrete new staff members. In which, through contact with HMC in Amsterdam, Rotterdam, Houten ... shoulder left ... Klasje, Koning Willem I College in Den Bosch, for example ... I recently spoke with a self-employed person who works for Interieur Retail together, together also with the DB Group, which, by the way, has that perfectly in place ...
Jerry Helmers: What specifically did they do?
Martin Jansen: They really do a bit of their own internal training. So they also work for example with the mechanic training. Because of course there was not only a shortage of sales personnel, but also of mechanics.
Maarten Zegstroo: Isn't it true then, Martin, because we also have a lot of daddy-mommy businesses, that we can join forces to help those people get trained staff? Those I don't think have the budgets, I think, one, two, three to get into that so....
Martin Jansen: But you have to if we look at mechanics... there are subsidized training programs. There's nobody there... The only thing that such a dealer does, of course, I recognize myself in that sometimes, is that of course you get up the next day to go and do the same thing you did yesterday. And not thinking for a moment about the fact that by now your mechanic is already fifty or fifty-five years old, my age, our age. And yes, this boy ... sorry, but those are not after you. Is there a cousin somewhere? Of course, they prefer people with a hundred years of experience. And who are well known. But then they ask ... of course that's about salary.
Jerry Helmers: Either they can or they can't. But if you indeed want to keep people with lots of years of experience in your industry, then you also encourage conservatism. Surely you need people for new ideas as well.
Martin Jansen: Yes, but then you have to be open to those new ideas.
Jerry Helmers: Especially people who may not be from the industry at all and who you want to entice into the industry.
Martin Jansen: Yes, but let me give you a practical example.
[32:39] Collaboration with education and internships
Martin Jansen: Then I answer the question a little bit. We work together, try to work together with the HMC, Koning Willem I College. And then through the contact of Ben, is called the dear man of the mechanic training. There we all tried to get young, fresh, new staff... very apprenticeships. Because then they start with ... they look for internships for an average of twenty weeks a year. That would still, I think, if you could get somebody fresh in your store, and you don't put them in the warehouse to sweep things there, and you don't just have them make coffee, but you just have them talk to people. The funny thing is that those young people also just smile the moment a consumer comes in. Of course, that's a very strange sensation of course. And a consumer doesn't feel that pressure either, because that student doesn't come up to you to sell a kitchen right away either.
Jerry Helmers: But so the bottomline is to contact the education or educational institution in your area. That contact is already there.
Martin Jansen: Only I also notice that on those courses, I think internship supervisor is the biggest punishment you can get as a teacher. Because they don't really stand for groups there either. Also there you notice: the feeling towards the kitchen specialist is the same as with a consumer.
Jerry Helmers: Okay, but I hear some yes but, Martin, in conclusion.
Maarten Zegstroo: Yes, I had a yes but. And not so much towards Martin, but more that I think of: yes, that daddy-mommy business... the average age is indeed around fifty-five, I think, that hope also that that business will be taken over at some point. And there lies a future issue.
Jerry Helmers: Well, then what do you think is the answer to the issue?
Maarten Zegstroo: Yes, there aren't any on that right now....
Jerry Helmers: So do I share it.
Maarten Zegstroo: I think if you now ... well look across the street as well. How many dealers do we have, Martin? Seven hundred I think in the Netherlands approximately. Will all those kitchen specialty stores still exist in ten years?
Jerry Helmers: Yes, so that's the question.
Maarten Zegstroo: I don't think the way things are going now.
Jerry Helmers: So then the industry stands ...
Maarten Zegstroo: We have a problem.
Jerry Helmers: We have a problem indeed.
[34:45] How do you retain staff?
Jerry Helmers: A tip for that kitchen specialist: how to keep staff, Martin. How can you keep them? We're not talking about recruiting now, but how can you keep them?
Martin Jansen: Retention is not the biggest problem with our customers. But coming up with new, fresh blood. That they are open to people without experience.
Jerry Helmers: It may not be a problem with you, but it is a problem in the industry. The columnist also said it in his spoken column, of yes, we have to prevent them from leaving within a year. Maybe it's not a problem with you, but say one tip where you say, this is how we do it and that's the right method to retain your staff.
Martin Jansen: Yes, I think that can't be explained in one sentence. I personally think that if you can then use that wonderful word transparent, I think that should suit people, then I think you should also do that to your staff. Where in the past, of course, there was very concealment and sort of secrecy about numbers and purchasing and sales and margins, all those wonderful words. Just include your staff in the price. Yeah, ultimately, you can kind of ... if you're driving somewhere 120 and you come across these signs that you're allowed 120 there, you don't know you're driving out of it either. So if you also don't explain to people that every product that he has to sell, yeah, why you do that, that power, then you can't charge them either.
Jerry Helmers: That's a great metaphor, we're definitely going to remember that. You finally have a tip then for those kitchen specialty stores that they can do something with to retain staff?
Maarten Zegstroo: Yes, well, do indeed involve them in the enterprise, that at first. And then, at some point, dare to let them go, so that they can learn to stand on their own two feet. Because that makes the kitchen business a lot more attractive to those people.
Jerry Helmers: What do you mean, that own legs?
Maarten Zegstroo: That at some point they don't always get the drawing to the owner first....
Jerry Helmers: Okay, so I am indeed saying: you work there for a number of years or a while, and at some point: go ahead, take your own responsibility.
Maarten Zegstroo: Better to make a wrong decision than no decision.
Jerry Helmers: Exactly. Better to make a wrong decision than no decision at all. And then in your service and in your communication resolve that charmingly to the consumer.
[36:47] Two final minutes before guest
Jerry Helmers: Anyway, we've almost come to the end of this episode of Kitchencast. But we still have the last two minutes. And what's the exciting part of those last two minutes? Columnist Maarten Zegstroo needs to shut up. I, the host Jerry Helmers, must shut up. It's two full minutes for our guest Martin Jansen. Are you ready, for those two minutes? Completely free speaking time. You can say whatever you want. You may advertise your own case. You may come back sharply to everything we've talked about here. Two minutes. Are you ready?
Martin Jansen: No. Well, I think it's good that I come back to the podcast for a moment. Which was already a new experience for me. But what's especially important for us as a product, as Ballerina, as MiMa, is that it's not so much about retention. Because our retailers do that pretty well anyway. But to me it's more about the fact: how will we be in ten or fifteen years? Because then most of them will be my age. And then of course I can very selfishly think: in ten to fifteen years I will spend even more time with my grandson. Because then it will be for our generation after us. I think we should all be more open to the new generation who may not have experience, but who are unbiased about our wonderful... Just what Maarten says, we really have a fantastic market with lots of challenges and beautiful stuff and where we can really do better than the world around us. So if we were more open to that. We've already seen that fortunately with fifty cents people, one of our own colleagues in our office, Fleur van der Pluijmen, who may be mentioned by name. That to me is a girl, who is only two or twenty-three years old. She started from the Koning Willem I College as an intern with us. In the beginning we didn't do a good job of supervising an intern. And afterwards we realized that that had to change. And that is one of our strengths. Because if you see how he picks up both digital and product matters at that age, that's just an example for what could follow at the rest of our kitchen specialty stores. And above all, let's do it together, because so there are plenty of challenges ahead. Just regardless if Mr. Trump is around or not.
[38:56] Final reflection
Jerry Helmers: Martin, thank you very much. You had twenty seconds left. You could have still said hello to your grandson, so to speak.
Martin Jansen: To my grandson.
Jerry Helmers: Martin, thank you so much for joining us. What's your feeling? Are you satisfied with how things went in this podcast? There was a little bit of abrasion at times between you and me, between Martin and you. At least not always completely agreeing with each other.
Martin Jansen: You don't have to.
Jerry Helmers: No, don't have to indeed. But a nice feeling?
Martin Jansen: Yes, absolutely.
Jerry Helmers: Will you come back again?
Martin Jansen: I don't know that right now.
Jerry Helmers: You know that then, you should look over at him. Maarten, I'm looking at you too. How did you like this podcast? Can we be satisfied with this guest here at the table?
Maarten Zegstroo: I am very satisfied with Martin. I have known Martin for many years. That also makes it easier for me to do this first...
Jerry Helmers: Okay. All right, thanks for coming in. Thank you for your input.
[39:45] Closing the podcast
Jerry Helmers: Dear listeners, you have been listening to Keukencast, the podcast for trade professionals with ambition in the kitchen industry. My name is Jerry Helmers. I was your host and presenter. Thanks to our regular sidekick and kitchen expert, kitchen guru Maarten Zegstroo. Will you stop by Keukencast sometime? It would be fun. Check right away: www.keukenbouw-online.nl. You are most welcome. Technique: Daan Halters and Mark Schouten, project manager Folkert van der Werf, final editing of our course also in the hands of Suzanne Peek. Keukencast is a production of Louwers Mediagroep in Weert. Until the next episode, until the next Keukencast.
